Casey Anthony trial date cancelled – Plus date of death & motive

July 7, 2009 · 209 Comments

From the Orlando Sentinel:

Casey Anthony trial is delayed after defense team member told judge her teaching schedule would prevent her from being able to go to trial in three months, according to WFTV.com.

ORLANDO, Fla. — The October 12 date for Casey Anthony’s first-degree murder trial has been cancelled after a Tuesday morning meeting between the defense, prosecution and the judge. Eyewitness News was the only media at the meeting at the Orange County courthouse.

Defense team member Andrea Lyon told Judge Stan Strickland her teaching schedule would prevent her from being able to go to trial in three months. Judge Strickland cancelled the October 12 date and scheduled a status hearing on the first-degree murder trial for January 21.

“So, I’ll go ahead and strike that October trial date and we’ll set this status slash pretrial in January,” Strickland said during the Tuesday morning meeting.

Casey Anthony is accused of killing her young daughter Caylee and dumping her remains near the Anthony family home.

Additionally, the judge said that he wants an affidavit from Amy Huizenga showing she wants to invoke her right to a speedy trial in the check fraud case that the prosecution wants to move forward on. Casey is charged with stealing her friend’s checkbook and buying personal items with forged checks.

Lyon, the defense’s death penalty qualified attorney, also told Judge Strickland that she plans to file several motions after Labor Day, but details of those motions were not given.

A date of death and a motive

“She’s the best mistake you ever did?”

That was Detective Eric Edwards’ question after coaxing information from Lee Anthony during his July 29 interview last year. That’s what good detectives do, they get information out of you in ever so subtle ways. Lee and Edwards were discussing whether there was a genuine wedge between his mother and Casey. The detective was poking and prodding his way through Lee’s brain. He acknowledged there was competition between the two, and resentment. “That my mother has been the provider for Caylee, even down to the extent that my mother was the first person to hold Caylee when she came out of the womb. So my, my mom is convinced that my sister holds some, some kind of resentment to her.”

Edwards continued, “So outside looking in, a child has a child and the first person to hold is the mother, that’s not really receptive to the whole idea anyway because she’s looking down at her because it was a mistake? So maybe some resentment towards that, which you just said?”

“Uh-hum.”

“And then now constant, constant statements that you’re unaware when they happened that…”
“Uh-hum.”
“… ‘She’s the best mistake you ever did?’ So it’s harsh, harsh judgment almost?”
“Sure.”
“And she’s living under the thumb of that?”
“Sure. Absolutely.”

“And then now constant, constant statements that you’re unaware when they happened that…”

“Uh-hum.”

“… ‘She’s the best mistake you ever did?’ So it’s harsh, harsh judgment almost?”

“Sure.”

“And she’s living under the thumb of that?”

“Sure. Absolutely.”

Detective Edwards was really getting into it. He and Lee were developing a rhythm and Lee seemed to be comfortable in his surroundings. Later in the interview, Edwards asked Lee to describe the things he picked up from Tony Lazzaro’s apartment the night Casey was questioned.

“Okay, so you went and you picked up. Give me that list of items again.”

“Sure. Uhm…”

“From Tony’s apartment at Sutton Place.”

“Yes… I went and picked up my mom’s laptop… a very large uhm, leopard print duffel bag that had all of her clothing and items uhm, in there. Uhm, a uhm, a backpack, a white backpack with a kind of a, you know, a pattern or you know, a symbol on that uhm, that also had some more clothing items in there.”

There were wall to wall cops at the Anthony home that night. Squad cars were parked everywhere, up and down Hopespring Drive. Everything in that house was being controlled by law enforcement. George would have had to be a sharp, sharp man to pay attention to the bags Lee brought back from Tony’s at 2:25  in the wee hours of July 16. It was a late night, for sure, but there was a lot more to come and plenty of life changing events in the lives of all of the family members.

Towards the end of the interview, Lee relayed the story George told him about the 16th of June being the day he watched Casey and Caylee leave and that was the day she moved in with Tony. The significance of this is that it was Lee telling the detective before George did, and he did so in such a nonchalant, matter of fact manner, hardly like it had been previously rehearsed and long before the 15th or 16th became a hotbed of controversy to so many bloggers. George was just telling his son that he was positive of the day and he did so for his own peace of mind.

Lee also noticed there was nothing in Lazzaro’s apartment or in Casey’s bags that indicated Caylee was ever there; no clothes, no diapers, no crackers, no juice containers. Nothing. It was as if she had just disappeared. Does that sound like a cover-up to you? It reiterated what Cindy had said in her interview on August 4.

During George’s interview with detectives on August 4, he described one of the backpacks as white with monkeys (see page 7 of OCSO Search Warrant.) This is the same basic description Lee gave of the item. You can say anything you want about George and Lee lying to investigators to help Casey, but it makes no sense. It makes no sense because if a motive had been in place for months or years, the date of death is not all that significant when the discrepancy comes down to only a matter of hours between June 15 & 16. How would this possibly help Casey’s defense? No one is questioning who did it.  To argue with their testimony would be nothing more than a feeble attempt to prove that Casey did not have a previous motive and she acted out of anger on the 15th and that would render premeditation and the death penalty useless for the most part. Trust me, the state knows what it is doing and there are reasons why one date in particular stands out.

A Beautiful Life

When Casey sauntered into the Cast Iron Tattoo shop on July 2 of last year, artist Bobby Williams had no idea how much that day would end up meaning to him for the rest of his life. He was the one who tattooed Bella Vita, or Beautiful Life, on Casey’s left shoulder, the focus of investigators who filed a motion to take close-up pictures of the tattoo from her jail cell. He said that Casey came in and was there for about an hour. She acted very normal and most of the time he was working on her tattoo, she was on the phone with Tony Lazzaro in New York. No big deal. He said she never mentioned her daughter, not that there was anything unusual about it at the time because no one knew she was missing. So, all this time she was frantically searching for Caylee, she had time for a tattoo about a beautiful life. Trust me folks, this is a revelation. It shows premeditation. She had planned the murder and the tattoo was but one of the fruits of her labor.

“It’s definitely, definitely strange now that you put two and two together and the child’s missing and she comes in and gets something like that,” Williams told FOX35. And she acts totally normal? Yeah, like nothing happened? It’s like is it because she’s living a beautiful life or beautiful life because her daughter is missing?” Yup. Definitely. For sure. He added that he didn’t get any sense that Casey was looking for a child or worried.

A Motive

In my opinion, all of this and plenty more evidence illustrated a desire to rid herself of her daughter and to celebrate afterward. She longed to be free and away from her family. She deliberately set forth in motion a series of actions that took care of her “problem” once and for all. She hated her mother. She detested her father. She accused her brother of sexual abuse, and she stole from everyone. All the while, everyone enabled her.

To be plain and simple, she wanted to be free from all responsibility, she wanted to run away with a man and start all over again and she wanted to bring her family down. She wanted to destroy them. She felt that her mother must suffer because of  her own suffering inside and it was the best way to pay her back. It was a cleansing and a methodical ritual. In its wake, she purposely left her family empty-handed and in shambles. Therein lies her motive, and her tattoo was clearly a declaration of her success. No more Mom. No more Dad. Best of all, no more Caylee. This is what the state will show, that it was a long term effort and not one single incident that set her off. It was a culmination.

The Date of Death

It is interesting to note that on none of the major networks, here in the Orlando market and nationwide, is there a discrepancy over the day Caylee was last seen. They all go with June 16 and there’s a reason for that, which I will get to. It is only in the world of blogging and, perhaps, on some of the forums dedicated to this crime, that June 15 surfaces. This is strictly based on the allegation that Casey and her mother had a huge argument over stolen money, taken from her grandparents, who Cindy had just spent a good part of the day with. No way was this the first time Casey and her mother fought. They had done it thousands of times, but more importantly, this was also the last time Cindy ever saw her grandchild. She left early the next morning for work. Nowhere is it mentioned that Cindy noticed Casey’s car missing as she drove off. Oh, my God! Where is Caylee?

In order for the June 15 theory to come to fruition, a whole set of motions must drop into place, with no deviations. I never bought into this theory because it’s too wild to imagine everything falling into this complex order and besides, it is not the official line. Not one person in the State Attorney’s Office, law enforcement, or anyone affiliated with the crime has made mention of this conspiracy theory and that George Anthony lied about the day he last saw Caylee alive. If no one officially affiliated with the case has strayed from June 16, why are others? From comments on my own blog and elsewhere, thousands of people believe the 15th was the day because no one could prove it wasn’t. That is the basis for their argument. And gut feelings for some. As much as I protested and begged for one little shred of information that the 15th was for real, I got nothing in return other than suppositions on their part and material from Florida that more or less linked the death to the 16th. Why did the State of Florida not choose to pursue any conspiracy propagated by George, Cindy and Lee? Because they already investigated it and found it to be without without merit.

Here is what the theorists propose:

1 ) Cindy and Casey had a big, bang-up fight over stolen money on the night of June 15, 2008.

2 ) The neighbors specifically heard Cindy and Casey argue on that date.

3 ) Casey stormed out of the house, dragging Caylee along with her.

4 ) Casey killed Caylee that night. That is a fact.

5 ) Casey remained extremely close to the house in order to maintain cell phone pings that placed her in or near the house.

6 ) George called Lee after 11:00pm to find out where Casey and Caylee were. Not all are in agreement on this one.

7 ) Lee lied to investigators.

8 ) Cindy lied to investigators.

8 ) George lied to investigators.

10 ) Casey spent the night in her car, in the sweltering summer heat of Florida, talking on her cell phone.

11 ) Casey remained in her car in the hot, steamy summer weather until 2:00pm the next day and specifically in the neighborhood, until George left for work. All cell phone pings came from the vicinity of the house.

12 ) Casey had her cell phone car lighter adapter, knowing she would need it.

OK, I’ll readily admit that anything is possible and this case has surely proved that, but I just don’t believe it because it detracts from the real motive and focuses more on an act of irrational behavior on one given night and without a whole lot of premeditation. It is rendered into one emotional outburst. If true, the state would not be seeking the death penalty. It would have been a crime of passion and more difficult to prove it was planned beforehand and with malice. Also, looking at the list, one might understand how much would have to fall into place for this to work and wonder why no one closely tied into the investigation has detailed this approach. Granted, the state has not shown all of its cards, so instead, I explored in areas where the sun does shine: document dumps. I took a direct route to a very, very credible source.

Shown below is a piece of paper, as close as I can get on a Web site, with a date that will tell you what the State of Florida vs. Casey Marie Anthony thinks. Someone asked me for something with the June 16 date on it, so here it is.  Bear in mind that this document has Dr. Jan Garavaglia’s signature attached to it. The date listed on page two is based on data supplied by law enforcement to the Orange County Medical Examiner’s office. It was after careful examination by investigators that this determination was made. Investigators do not randomly pick out a day of the month. They do not make up dates based on how bloggers think. They thoroughly looked into the possibilities of many different dates and this is what they concluded. Pay careful attention to the heading because it begins with the word FINDINGS, nothing else, and that word carries a lot of weight. No what ifs, no arguments and no speculation. The entire report is based from that date forward. This, my friends, is what the prosecutors will walk into the courthouse with come trial day and until further notification, this is the official stand on the last known date Caylee was seen alive as recognized by the authority of the State of Florida. This is Caylee’s autopsy report. Please observe that it does not say June 15 or any other date whatsoever:

Caylee Autopsy Final page 2


Read it yourself. To verify my finding and to prove I did not alter this document, you can read it at the WESH PDF link on page 2.

END OF STORY.

X

Categories: Human Interest
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209 responses so far ↓

  • laura // July 7, 2009 at 1:10 pm

    No shock there. Do you think Amy wants a speedy trial?

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 1:43 pm

    Of course not!

  • laura // July 7, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    I see the document now about the date of death, I had not read these reports. I choose not to. Do you think Amy wants a speedy trial? I have no real comment about the date of death, so I am focusing on Amy sorry.

  • Boston // July 7, 2009 at 2:08 pm

    I saw that date and thought that it was based on the fact that George said he last saw Caylee alive on the 16 June.

    Why would Casey say that her child was missing for 31 days? Not opening up the days discussion again but there has always been a discrepancy there in her math.

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 2:12 pm

    There is no chance of a speedy trial, Laura. Those dates came and went. As far as just having the theft trial before the murder one, I don’t know how the judge will rule. I guess it depends on how the defense presents its case.

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 2:14 pm

    It is based on what George said, Boston, but you will notice it is not based on hearsay and the 15th. Detwill39 asked me to provide documentation stating that date. There it is. If anyone can prove it otherwise, then that is the date according to an official document.

  • Anonymous // July 7, 2009 at 2:15 pm

    Hi Dave – I know this has been a source of great conflict and I don’t want to cause any additional trouble. The key word that sticks out to me though is ‘reportedly’. The findings are based on George’s testimony to the authorities. No one else stated anything different. I’m not sure that I believe this is the end all answer to this. I’m no Anthony basher by any means but George has changed his statements many times, we all know this. IMHO, the authorities are using this date based on his statement but other avenues are being and have been looked at. We may never know exactly and that is the point really. As you state, there is much evidence that we haven’t seen yet but I really don’t think there will be any new light shed on the 15th/16th timeline. Though I’ve always thought there was premeditation here, I don’t think there was a set time or plan by Casey. I believe there was a trigger that was set off by some event (it could have been a major argument with Cindy) that set this in motion. Also, I believe it’s the discovery we haven’t seen yet that caused the death penalty to be put back on the table. Until we’ve seen it all, I believe there may be Casey’s prints on the duct tape. I find it curious that George, Cindy and Lee were eliminated from the tape test but eliminated from what? There has to be something there to eliminate from…anyway, hope this isn’t too controversial. I understand you’re taking what the authorities are saying and sticking with it…that’s reasonable. All I’m saying is that none of us can really be certain of the timeline, hence, the ‘reportedly’. In the end, it doesn’t really make any difference to the outcome of this case, IMO.

  • mikka // July 7, 2009 at 2:19 pm

    i think still the trial will may start end of 201o!

  • mikka // July 7, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    dave,why you think,amy dont want the speedy trial?

  • laura // July 7, 2009 at 2:30 pm

    Dave the judge wanted a signed paper asking for a speedy trial on the theft charges. It sounded like he would base his decision on her request, that is why I was asking.

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 2:33 pm

    You and all the others can think what you want and continue with a conspiracy theory to your hearts’ content. All I am saying is that this is a document recognizing a date. It does not say the 15th and until I see some form of documentation stating otherwise, this is the official date as it stands today. I have begged for something other than mere speculation, allegations and theories to show me that the 16th is wrong and the 15th is correct. So far, no one has shed any light on the 15th. None.

    I wonder where you get the idea that George, Cindy and Lee have not been eliminated from the suspect list. This is the same irrational logic that says the 15th is the date. Show me anything about the family other than Casey that implicates them. Casey will be going on trial. Why do you people keep insisting the whole family is made up of liars and God knows what else? I laid out my thoughts as clear as a bell and I backed it up with documents. What have any of you shown me other than you know so much more than me?

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 2:38 pm

    Because the defense is going to fight it tooth and nail. They don’t want any trial until after the first-degree murder trial is settled. Their opinion is that it could taint that trial because pertinent information would be disclosed and used against her in the murder trial.

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 2:39 pm

    Besides, it’s not really Amy’s call. Sure, she would like to get it over with, but remember, it was the state that pressed charges. They could have done it with or without Amy’s blessing.

  • laura // July 7, 2009 at 2:46 pm

    Right. I was just confused why Amy would have to ask for the speedy trial. I guess that will be the argument of the state that the person “harmed” wants it over with, I guess. It was brought up today by the judge asking for Amy’s signed request for a speedy trial. Okay I will now leave this one alone before you reach through your computer screen and straggle me! LOL

  • Newbie // July 7, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    2:33 comment, last sentence…..I have nothing to show either way but have relied on your previous statements that we are free to think and disagree which does not equate to knowing more than you.

  • detwill39 // July 7, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    Dave~~You did alot of work putting this post together and I will give you credit for that . I am going to refrain from commenting at this time for various reasons.

  • Dee // July 7, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    Some folks just don’t get it Dave, and nothing you can say will change their minds. Hey, there was a person in my life just like that last month – same thing. It’s not pleasant, but it is, what it is, and we have to live with it.

    Even after the trial, these folks will hold onto their beliefs. There are still people who believe the JFK assassination was a conspiracy . . .

    Sometimes, Dave, we are just the ‘bad guys’ in some folks eyes, even though we are not.

    And I don’t understand WHY it makes a lick of difference anyway. Why make a stormy mountain over a dinky little mole hill?

    Aarghhh !

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    You mean Kennedy wasn’t killed by the Anthonys?

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 3:25 pm

    Laura, I would never do anything like that to you. You are a sweetheart.

    Also, it’s a sworn affidavit, meaning she agrees with the prosecution’s request for a speedy trial.

  • Boston // July 7, 2009 at 3:34 pm

    We come here to discuss and I, for one, have never thought anything relative to this case has ever been viewed through the “conspiracy” lens. The fact that I believe Casey killed Caylee in the early afternoon hours of the 16 June is because George said that he saw both of them leave the house. Although Cindy was not home she agrees with George that Casey was in fact home prior to her leaving for work. All we can do is rely on their statements. Casey of course is not disputing his recollection.

    What I don’t particularly like is people dividing up into camps and being refered to as a nitwit-”these folks will hold onto their beliefs. There are still people out there who believe the JFK assassination was a conspiracy…”.

    I am sure Dee that you would be the first person to say that it wasn’t your intention to offend. Nevertheless I was offended. You have the choice of whether or not to be “the bad guy”.
    Anonymous was fair minded and respectful and I doubt he/she anticipated such a response.

  • Newbie // July 7, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    Hey Dave, do you have the rest of the “Conclusions/Opinion” ?

  • Coreysmom // July 7, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    Bravo, Anonymous! You said it well. “Reportedly” is a big word there!
    Dave, the Anthonys, sans Casey, were eliminated as far as fingerprints on the tape were concerned. Its in the docs. I can’t see where Anonymous is some conspicy theorist except that perhaps anyone who disagrees with you on this is one? I can understand why the person commented under Anonymous!

  • Dee // July 7, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    I apologize for offending Boston – that was not my intent. Sorry it came off sounding that way.

  • Id'claire // July 7, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Dave, you are willing to consider the 15th? yet the document makes you hold to the 16th. That’s fine. But if you’re willing to consider the 15th, why slam those who hold to the 15th as conspiracy theorists?

    Those holding to the 15th are putting 2 and 2 together without documentation. Isn’t that fair?
    Isn’t it fair to question the reliability of George and Cindy, for whatever reason?

    I would not necessarily rely on Casey for 31 days, but why not give it weight? She testifies she dropped off Caylee between 9-1. She doesn’t know? That doesn’t collaborate with George. She said she had to work late, yet she went back for Caylee that day? and searched parks? Casey’s account for the 16th is so ragged that I suspect she made it all up. Caylee might have already been gone. Remember George’s account was a month old.

    You ask why would George be covering up and yet, say what he said that possibly implicated Casey…However, possibilities are that he mis-remembers, or is doing damage control…in hopes to somehow soften the blow for Casey or at least put his wife and himself in a better light.

    Cindy called Casey early morning of 16th. Could be because her car wasn’t there. Yes, Cindy and George have not always been forthcoming or they were in a tizzy to say things just right.

    You give good reasons and documentation for the 16th…based on George’s statement. That’s great.

  • Newbie // July 7, 2009 at 4:06 pm

    Whoops, sorry Dave. I see you provided the site at the end of your post.

  • Coreysmom // July 7, 2009 at 4:07 pm

    Well said, Boston!

  • detwill39 // July 7, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Boston~~I have formed my opinion in what I believe to be what happened and on what day. I am going to stick to my opinion until someone can prove otherwise. Will that ever be proven beyond a reasonable doubt is yet to be determined. Hopefully we will have some concrete evidence put forward to substaniate, once and for all, the actual time that Caylee was murdered.

    If anyone would like to say I am closed minded or make other detrimental assumptions of my integrity, that is their perogative. I have poured over documents and studied this case since Sept/08. We all interpret facts in our own way based on how we view it and weigh it for being fact or fabrication, especially some of the interviews.

    I refused to be brainwashed to the point that I retract my beliefs on what happened. By retracting, and coming across as one of the ‘goods guys’, it will take away from all the efforts I have diligently put into this case.

    The autopsy report says…’reportedly’

    Reportedly….By report; supposedly.

    Supposedly….
    Synonyms: allegedly, evidently, apparently, purportedly, theoretically, hypothetically, by all accounts, so they say, so it is said, it would seem

  • Coreysmom // July 7, 2009 at 4:09 pm

    Detwill39, I hope you will comment! Please, with strawberries on top? :grin:

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    I, for one, don’t mind conspiracy theories at all as long as there are things, even one thing, to substantiate it/them. In this case, no one has shown me any evidence and that frustrates me because I try to base things on the facts at hand. I do get upset sometimes when I am told one thing and I ask for something in return. Then, I get nothing more than, “Well, it’s because I know.” “How do you know?” “Because I heard it. I know.” And so far, that’s what I’ve been getting. In the case of today’s post, I am doing my best to substantiate where the state is going to go with the motive. If the charge is one of premeditation, which it is, then it clearly, clearly means, not just suggests, that the state has evidence going back longer than June 15. Because the state calls the crime premeditated, what difference does it make if the murder occurred on the 15th or the 16th? To prove what? That she did it on the 15th in a fit of rage? OK, fine. Then give me a piece of evidence besides calling George a liar because that is the entire message here. All people want to do is prove George and the other Anthonys lied. And for what purpose? Besides nothing, the only reason is to show that Casey lost her temper and killed her that night. I am going to update this article that sheds light on her demeanor that night and exactly what Anthony Lazzaro told Yuri Melich during one of his interviews. Then, please come back and tell me how mad she was.

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 4:10 pm

    I don’t know what you mean, Newbie.

  • Id'claire // July 7, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    Dear Casey,

    Sorry you must wait now until 2010. Are you intrigued? Has Baez said, don’t worry? Do you feel safer?

    Give your family a big hello from all of us.

  • Barbie Girl // July 7, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    I was wondering what difference it makes whether or not it was the night of the 15th or the 16th? I think because I liked Padilla I believed him when he said that he heard, from Lee maybe, that Casey really left on the night of the 15th after the big fight with Cindy.

    I can’t see how George, Cindy and Lee lying about it would help Casey’s defense any. Caylee is dead and she was last seen during those 24 hours.

    I just can’t seem to keep myself away from here, but I have to say, I don’t know how you guys can keep debating the same issues over and over again. The theories are so widespread you all aren’t ever going to agree. All you can do is agree to disagree.

    The weather got nice, my garden is in full bloom, and I sat today watching a very moving and touching tribute to Michael Jackson.

    Life goes on, and like the tides, a new case will wash this one away in but a mere instant, like footprints in the sands of time. A year from now no one will be debating this very minor issue, in the scheme of things.

    We will never know the answers and the futility is frustrating, especially when you think of all of the important questions we could be asking. What is the meaning of life, for instance.

    Go out and look up at the heavens tonight and pray and know that Caylee is in a better place, away from the violence that spawned this story and the mysteries that surround it.

    I think anyone who pretends to be an authority on this case and risking being opinionated on here should be willing to suffer the consequences.

    Peace,

    Barbie Girl

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 4:13 pm

    Coreysmom – I am making the claim that there is no evidence to support the claim that Casey darted from the house that night and killed Casey. None. Everyone who chooses to believe that happened is not a theorist? What are they? At least my document gives a specific date and there is no other piece of documentation that refutes it. I am stating that I agree with what has been presented.

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 4:17 pm

    I am willing to look at the 15th, Id’claire, if I can look at something. I would never say never, but all I have asked for is something. Until then, I am going to stick with the 16th because it is a date on an official document. that means as of today, the state believes it is true and real.

  • Boston // July 7, 2009 at 4:18 pm

    If it’s not okay to “bash” the Anthony’s why is it okay to ridicule a responder/commenter? We all like to think that our comments are read by others but that is largely magical thinking when it comes to Blogs but nonetheless, a writer is a lonely person without a reader.

    No one, reader or writer, has the right to give a metaphorical slap to anyone who takes the time to read and respond. Silencing the opposition is not a goal of a good writer.

    A writer’s voice is something to be respected especially when you agree to disagree. When the voices turn to silence being right will be nothing more than a shallow victory.

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    I’m still wondering, though, detwill39. If the state looks at that date, the 16th, and says, so far that’s where we’re coming from, why can’t you at least pretend that it works? If the state believed the 15th was a viable date, why was it not listed on the autopsy report? In other words, “Reportedly on the 15 or 16 of June.”

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 4:24 pm

    Boston, I did not bash any particular commenter and you know it.

  • detwill39 // July 7, 2009 at 4:28 pm

    My comment is finally showing upthread a few…

  • Newbie // July 7, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    Oooooh, Boston, well said !!!!!!!!

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    Hey, I can take it, too. But I’ll tell you what, you all have convinced me to no longer write about the case. You’re right. I will take this post down and all of the other ones. I’m not angry or anything. I just saw the light. See ya.

  • detwill39 // July 7, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    Dave~~I am not going over to your side of the camp to make you happy. You know darn well, at this time, I cannot supply you with that piece of evidence and why do you keep asking for it?
    By me not being able to produce, does not make you right. The autospy statement that you put in your post re the last time Caylee was seen could be laughed out of court. It is an assumption based on George’s supposedly vivid detailed descritption, Nothing else!!

  • detwill39 // July 7, 2009 at 4:35 pm

    sry for typos….lots on my mind today….

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    OK. I don’t mind. I need to break away from this case. I have lost interest.

  • detwill39 // July 7, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    Bravo Boston!!!

  • Anonymous // July 7, 2009 at 4:39 pm

    Thank you Boston and others. I don’t know why my comment appeared as Anonymous – My name is Lori and I have posted here before. Frankly, I don’t do it very often at all because of responses like the one I received. This is a very intelligent group but the rapport is lost, IMO, when something is said that does not agree with the writer and that is a shame. I certainly did not mean any disrespect and I appreciate the comments made to me. Thank you for being respectful of my opinion and thoughts.

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 10:35 pm

    Look everyone, I’m sorry for my bad attitude early today. It will not happen again. Please forgive me. I really am an open minded person.

  • Id'claire // July 7, 2009 at 10:57 pm

    Mr. Open-minded,

    The document you seek in considering the 15th is in the indictment that you yourself posted. It states the murder occurred on the 15th or 16th. We don’t have all the details. It doesn’t say why it includes both days. But Detwill, the Canadian Sleuth, has used the 15th. There’s only a window of time on the 15th because the day was drawing to a close.

    Because someone clings to the 15th does not make them irrational, an Anthony hater, or a conspiracy theorist. There are reasons to consider the 15th, the indictment being one of them.

    I can totally appreciate two excellent sleuths with two different opinions. But it’s gotta be OK to have different opinions without your being overly stubborn or bullying.

  • Marinade Dave // July 7, 2009 at 11:04 pm

    Well, Id’claire, I acted with poor judgement earlier today and I am sorry. Yes, both dates will work. As a matter of fact, I’m all for it.

  • Beatrice // July 7, 2009 at 11:26 pm

    A lot of OUR attitudes need to take a break and apologize.
    Dave, you work hard every day to bring this blog to people with genuine talent, fact and openness for conversation. You have always treated me with kind and decent response, I do respect and appreciate your extensive efforts.

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 12:08 am

    It is good to see you are human, Dave.

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 12:13 am

    It is not good to see you up at eleven. I think you may not be getting enough rest which could make a grouchy bear.

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 12:48 am

    Beatrice // July 7, 2009 at 11:26 pm

    A lot of OUR attitudes need to take a break and apologize.
    Dave, you work hard every day to bring this blog to people with genuine talent, fact and openness for conversation. You have always treated me with kind and decent response, I do respect and appreciate your extensive efforts.
    —————————————-
    I agree! The whole reason I love this blog is because Dave wants us to use our heads! He won’t give us a bogus theory in this case and he expects more out of us than other blogs do. He makes us think and do our own research if need be.
    I happen to think the murder happened in the early hours of the 16th, I also think that the putting on of duct tape over Caylee’s mouth and nose is premeditation enough. The State had the DP on the table in Nov. 08 then took it off just days before Caylee’s remains were found. DP is back on the table and I believe it has everything to do with the duct tape on Caylee’s precious head. Something was found to put the DP back on the table since Dec. 11, 08.
    Premeditation doesn’t mean it has to be days, weeks, or even months in the planning. Nor even hours. It can be minutes. It can be as quick as the commissioning of the crime. The qualifications for DP is that it must be cruel and heinous. The duct tape evidence, to me, shows that it is just that.
    Dave, you have alot on your plate now. Write about what you love to write about for awhile. You know that most of us here will still be interested to read what you write apart from this case. Maybe we all could use that break! Besides, when something new comes along in this case, I am confident you will keep us informed and write your usual intelligent comments.
    Be well, friend, and may God grant your heart’s desires.

  • Kari // July 8, 2009 at 1:12 am

    —–pssst! everybody ok? Dave, you still breathing? I have no clue what’s been going on, but I’m glad to find you back in business.

    ok, everyone have a good night, get some rest, and try to wake up feeling better. Nite-nite.

  • LosAngeles // July 8, 2009 at 2:00 am

    I agree Boston that Anonymous’s comment was fair-minded and respectful. She says none of us can really be sure of the timeline, there is much evidence that we haven’t seen, and that she really doesn’t think any new light will be shed on the 15th/16th timeline. Anonymouse states that other people’s ideas are “reasonable”. She even says “IMO”(which means “in my opinion”), which reflects graciousness and humility.

    I agree with Newbie’s comment that “We are free to think and disagree which does not equate to knowing more than anyone else”.

    Id’Claire, I agree with you, I don’t think that every single person who tinkers with the 15th are conspiracy theorists either. I just think that diffferent people toy around with different scenarios.

    Well, said, Detwill re your July 7, 4:09 pm comment.

    *****
    I would say that if Persons A, B, and C were to say XYZ with a purely malicious intent, it doesn’t automatically mean that when Persons D, E, and F say XYZ that they’re also doing it with a purely malicious intent.

    That would be painting everyone who says XYZ with the same brush and putting them all in the same category and saying that they’re speaking with a purely malicious intent and that they’re trying to blame someone for everything that happens.

    It’s important to try to perceive each individual’s intent.

  • LosAngeles // July 8, 2009 at 2:22 am

    Barbie Girl, many commenters here have said that it doesn’t matter if it was the 15th or 16th.
    Keeping in mind that this particular blog is a Caylee Anthony crime blog.

    How do you know that people here don’t contemplate important questions such as, “What is the meaning of life?” when they are not blogging here? How can you know who they talk to and what they talk about when not on this blog?

    How do you know how hard the people here pray or how often or not? Just because they don’t come out and pose on TV and say “I’m praying” “I’m praying” “Let’s pray” in the public square like those sleazy evangelists on TV with their own motives and certain celebrities with their own motives.

    I’m unclear on who exactly you’re saying pretends to be an authority on this case?
    Are you saying all the commenters are?
    Are you saying one particular commenter is?

    And,

    As far as you’re saying “they should be willing to suffer the consequences”, I’m unclear on what those consequences are.
    What consequences should they be willing to suffer?

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 5:44 am

    Dave, Could it be that by holding so tight to the 15th it is determination to prove Cindy and George are in that way a party to a cover up of Caylee’s murder. Even though the out and out accusations have mellowed, there seems to be a desperate need to prove thoughts were right all along about Cindy and George. You have been an obstacle in the out and out expressed hatred and hanging of Caylee’s grandparents. The 15th gives
    opportunity to still express dislike for them, even though it may be subconsciously. There does not seem to be any purpose to argue about 15th over 16th except to get at Cindy and George in some way. Surely, Casey
    is not going to get any benefit even if they have lied.
    The Death Penalty is on for Casey, but that is not enough to satisfy. I have found no remark from anyone that these grandparents ever did anything but love and care for Caylee. God help them, Casey is their daughter
    and they would have pictures of her when she was
    the same age as Caylee, who of us can imagine having to look and live the whole scene and know it is our family that has come to this. We deal with our own illnesses
    and hurts and for many they are a daily trial, living from hour to hour not knowing what is to be faced day to day, it can be very hard, yet, would anyone of us want
    to trade places with the Anthonys. past, present or future.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 7:12 am

    Yes, I am human after all, Newbie. I’m sorry for what I put you all through yesterday. I have a completely different attitude today.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 7:19 am

    Thank you very much, Coreysmom. I know you are taking a fair approach to this case, as you have all along. I appreciate your concern for me, too. Yes, I guess I do work hard sometimes and I’ve always enjoyed it. I still think, though, that because search terms for chloroform and neck breaking were done months before the murder, that’s where premeditation became so much of a force in the state’s case and after the body was discovered, the DP was warranted because of the horrible circumstances.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 7:28 am

    I’m OK, Kari. I just had a bad day and I’m sorry for it. Thanks for asking.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 7:44 am

    That’s a remarkable and poignant observation, Beatrice. Too many people do not look at the entire history of the Anthony family and because they really don’t know, they conjure up sinister plots. I agree that the entire foundation of the 15th is based on the premise that George, Cindy and Lee were lying. Granted, not all people feel that is why they believe it was the 15th, but most of them do and that’s how the rumor started. In no evidence is anything stated that Casey stormed out of the house that night with Caylee, but it’s turned into a circus when someone, somewhere on a blog brought it up. This would be from a collection of people who will forever say that if the Anthonys call a black sheet of paper black, they will insist it is white because all the Anthonys know how to do is lie. That document I put up on this post says that the medical examiner suggests the date of death was the 15th due to evidence law enforcement presented to that office at the time. There is no evidence about the 15th. Everyone is free to their opinion, but I was getting tired of those who insisted and had nothing to show for it.

    Another interesting aspect of the perception of people is the lawyer issue. Remember when all of the bloggers and commenters questioned why anyone would ever need a lawyer if they didn’t do anything wrong? I explained why. I insisted. I was persistent, but so were they. Why need a lawyer? No matter what I said, I was wrong. Today, those same people are praising Tony Lazzaro for finally hiring a lawyer. I the meantime, all that I expressed back then falls on deaf ears.

  • Muesli // July 8, 2009 at 8:16 am

    Morning all. Sorry you had a bad day yesterday, Dave. I did take the time to read all of the blogs and your post. I found it intriguing to see all the interpretations of the little we know about this case. After all, we all have the same information, and in our non-professional (legal) minds, we can only try to put the pieces of this puzzle together based on that information. I anticipate finding out in the end who was the closest to deciphering what really happened. In the meantime, “what do I know?”.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 8:20 am

    Good morning, Muesli. Yes, in the end, we should know right from wrong. Unfortunately, this case has made and broken too may friendships. No more, I hope.

    My day is much better than yesterday, thank you.

  • Muesli // July 8, 2009 at 8:28 am

    Isn’t that sad. I was once attacked for giving my opinion on another site, and I felt so badly about it. It wasn’t even mean spirited, just my opinion. I guess it is not always so easy to express one’s self in writing, without someone misinterpreting or being offended.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 8:34 am

    In all honesty, Muesli, I must say I brought a lot of it on myself. I wrote that piece and didn’t give everyone as much leeway in their opposition as I should have. That’s not like me, either. Today is a new day and I have a completely different outlook. I think the issue of the 15th and 16th is just going to be a thorn to some. Personally, I think the murder occurred on the 16th, but I would never say it wasn’t any other day.

  • Muesli // July 8, 2009 at 8:40 am

    Dave, I thought your post was exceptionally well written, with a lot of thought put into it. Did I agree with everything? No. Did I find it interesting? Yes.

  • Muesli // July 8, 2009 at 8:41 am

    Have to go. Dog wants to go out.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 8:45 am

    Thank you, Muesli. That’s all that matters. Definitely, let the dog out!

  • laura // July 8, 2009 at 9:17 am

    Good morning. We are still at the hospital, yesterday was very bad! My baby had to have a second surgery because of the infection. I am praying we get to go home soon, I NEED MY BED! I am sorry you had a bad day yesterday, I tried to sneak in and read comments in between nurse visits and surgery but you packed up and left. I am glad you are back!!!!!! Do not leave us again, that was not nice. lol Maybe you got over-heated working in the yard. I have had bad days and everyone forgave me we are human and it is expected no need to dwell on it we still love you.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 9:23 am

    Oh, Laura, I am so sorry to hear that. You poor thing, and your poor baby. I hope everything gets better today.

    I did overwork myself in the yard and I’m glad you brought that up. My BP was 170/100 and my pulse was 138 when I got bacl inside. That might have been what triggered my impulsive behavior, but I am making no excuses.

    Now, I am going to the clinic for blood work and then I think I’m going to take a drive down to Suburban Drive and around that neighborhood. I’ll be back later. Please take good care and wish your daughter my best. A warm kiss and hug from me would be nice.

    Thank you for hanging in there with me. I won’t do it again.

  • Diana // July 8, 2009 at 9:24 am

    Wow *Dave
    Great blog with sooo much to read (a few times).
    I am one of the diehard June 15th believers. But ……You are right. There is so evidence to support that. If there was no fight, and this was planned as you believe ……then Casey Anthony is more of a monster than I even imagined.
    I just pictured her “snapping” and the murder happened in a flash of anger. To actually PLAN this is much worse.
    The big fight story though……..where did that originate from? Wasn’t that Jesse or Lee?

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 9:32 am

    Good morning, Diana. Jesse mentioned that he heard it from Lee. I don’t know whether Lee said it was true, but the detectives never brought it up during his interview. In one of the interviews with Tony Lazzaro, he was asked specifically about that fight and what he recollected about the night of the 15th. He said he didn’t know whether Casey was at home or not, it was not brought up, and he didn’t hear any outside noise like he usually did when she talked to him outside of the house on other occasions. He wasn’t sure about the night of the 15th at all, but when pressed, he said that Casey was calm if it was that night, and she never mentioned a fight. As a matter of fact, the only mention Casey ever made to him about family problems was about Cindy and her arguing over the house, never about stolen money. It’s also interesting to note that Casey never once mentioned any physical contact between her and her family. This means she did not discuss anything of significance the night of the 15th. I am going to write an article that explains exactly what transpired on the phone that night.

    Thank you so very much for the compliment on the post.

  • Diana // July 8, 2009 at 10:02 am

    yw *Dave
    Thank you for picking timelines apart and noticing little things I had not thought of. I guess I am thinking like a juror. When someone lies about ONE thing, you automatically think they have lied about everything.
    In defense of other bloggers who swear by the 15th ……Don’t you think a huge part of it is based on having a very tough time of wrapping your brain around a mother PLANNING this? Wouldn’t common sense and reality kick in at some point and steer you in the other direction? You would think about the baby looking in your eyes and that warm feeling that rushes over you when you start to bond. All the cute little things your child does and says that makes them unique. Do you think Casey loved Caylee?

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 10:05 am

    Here is the best I can do for now:

    Grund also told investigators that Lee Anthony told him shortly before Caylee went missing that Casey Anthony had a very violent fight with her mother.

    “Cindy confided in him (Lee) that the reason, he thought, she felt that Casey ran off was there was a big fight between the two of them, and the fight concerned Casey not being home a lot and not bringing Caylee by,” Grund said. “It got into a very heated argument, which turned physical, and Cindy started choking Casey.”

    It was Eyewitness News (Kathi Belich) that reported this.

    Note: Cindy is the one who felt that Casey ran off because of the big fight they had.
    I’m going to be busy for awhile but this fight scenario should be in one of Jesse Grund’s interviews prior to April 10th (date of this report on another blog).

    And! Have a great day, everyone!
    Dave, most of us could tell you were out of sorts…
    Glad you are in a better mood!
    BTW, I know when my BP rises I’m very impatient and irritable. I understand! :mrgreen:

  • Diana // July 8, 2009 at 10:23 am

    Maybe there really was a big fight, but Casey never left. She layed in bed planning her revenge for the following day.

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 10:27 am

    Wait a minute! What is this about Cindy being upset that Casey wasn’t bringing Caylee around?! Hmmmm…..I think I’ve been fooled into thinking this fight was on the 15th of June! How can that be? Caylee was living with the Grandparents prior. I’m confuzzled….s.o.s…..

  • Diana // July 8, 2009 at 10:47 am

    LOL Coreysmom*
    I read that and scratched my head as well. Not bringing Caylee around?? She was always around because she lived there. Doesn’t make any sense.

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 11:02 am

    I know, Diana!
    WELL! This casts aspersions on Jesse now!
    J/K!

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 11:19 am

    I had to go in for blood work, so that’s why I hadn’t responded to your questions, Diana.

    I do think it’s a normal feeling to think the best of people, and in Casey’s situation, hope that she didn’t plan it, but I am sure she did because the indictment plainly reads premeditation. That means she planned it. It wasn’t spontaneous, like in a fit of rage. The unfortunate balance here is that because Cindy or George lied, then they are not credible, which makes no sense because law enforcement hasn’t discredited them or charged them with any crimes. I find it rather ironic that people would consider Casey just cracking one time only and then her parents lie about that night. I see no way that it would benefit Casey’s defense, either. If she acted on impulse, the murder would have been more about being an act of passion rather than one of premeditation and in my opinion, the death penalty would not have been put back on the table. In the end, you’re right, my version of the murder makes her into more of a monster, which I really do think she is and was whenever the death took place.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 11:21 am

    Thanks, Coreysmom. Like I said, no excuses, but I will admit I was out of sorts. I

    I was planning on going into Grund’s interviews when I’m done with Lazzaro’s.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 11:23 am

    I’m with you, Diana. I just don’t envision the murder happening that night when she spent most of it talking to Lazzaro, of which he described it as pillow talk. If it was a spur of the moment thing, how could she kill between phone calls and act like nothing happened?

  • Diana // July 8, 2009 at 11:38 am

    I would like to know what that converstaion with Tony was like. Was she happy because she felt like she had a plan to solve her “problem” or was she sad and tried to hedge Tony into accepting Caylee into their lives. Like a……..one last chance thing before I act upon what Im contemplating.
    Not sure if that was made public. What was that conversation like?

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 11:42 am

    Casey is a sociopath, so it is very possible for her to act as if nothing is wrong. She is doing that now after having murdered her child, so it is possible she did the same after the fight with Cindy (ahem-if there was a fight).

  • lindysmom // July 8, 2009 at 11:42 am

    I admit that I am one of the baffled, I see the video clip of Casey controlling her parents, and then going off into her rage, and I think the 15th. I think that is the last face Caylee saw.

    Then I read LE documents and I think it could have been a later date. One fact stands out, and that is that her body was in that trunk decomposing for a while. I am not hung up on a date, it could have been any day as far as I can see, up until the car was found by G&C.

    The one constant however to me is the lying, the backtracking after the initial cries of the stench of death. The idea that George smelled that smell and participated in throwing away a bag of trash from the trunk, when as a former police officer, he KNEW it could be evidence. I don’t believe the extended Anthonys killed Caylee, but once they realized who did, they have gone out of their way to oppose LE in any way they could. It could have been shock at first, the realization of what Casey had done, but that has turned into a full blown cover up and for that they should be charged with obstrution of justice.

    ALL the documentation and suppositions in the world cannot change the fact that the entire family in involved now, and they seem to be getting away with it. This is what sickens people and causes the cry for justice for this child. Justice not just from her mother, but the entire family that has turned their backs on her. They created it, they need to learn to live with it, and they seems to be living quite well, now that Caylee is dead.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 11:44 am

    He described it as a regular conversation. To almost validate his point, he wasn’t 100% sure that was the night but he emphasized that she never spoke of a bang out fight. Never mentioned it. He said she didn’t have anything physical with her mother, ever. I’m going to write a post that clearly spells out what he said, but today, I want to go down to the site of the memorial and take pictures of what it looks like now. You won’t recognize it.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Coreysmom – My problem was never really about the fight, whether it occurred or not, although there is no proof one did take place. No, that’s not it. It was about the chain of events that happened right after the alleged fight. Not in any transcripts was it mentioned that Casey stormed out of the house. That was someone unrelated to the crime making up an excuse for the murder. That is all it is based on. I’ve asked for something, anything that would substantiate the fight and, in particular, that she left the house the evening of the 15th. Remember, if she did leave that night, she could not have gone home until after 2:00pm the next day, after George left for work. It means that Casey spent over, at least, 15 hours in her car. Does that make sense to you? Just parked somewhere very close to home? In her car?

  • no rocket scientist // July 8, 2009 at 11:54 am

    Casey killed her, G& C knew it, and made shocked and honest first responses. For whatever reasons they decided to backtrack, lie, impede th investigation AND the search, to save Casey. Caylee stopped mattering the moment they realized Casey would have to take responsibility, and they fll into their dysfunctional family roles of enabling her. It does not matter which day it was, it only matters that it happened, they know it, and they are lying.

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 11:54 am

    From Wikipedia:
    In some states, premeditation may be construed as taking place mere seconds before the murder.

    Is Florida one of those states?

    Hmmmm…..I wonder if Casey’s search for household weapons showed the use of duct tape to kill a person?

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Hi, lindysmom – And all of the documentation in the world, including blogs, proves that almost the entire world is involved now. I understand what you mean by the lies, but bear in mind, no one in law enforcement has charged any of them with a crime, nor have any agencies disputed his claim of seeing her. That’s what I’ve been resting my case on, thae fact that law enforcement has not come out and said, after all of the investigations, “George is lying.” At least, I have a peace of paper that substantiates what law enforcement thinks at this time. No where does anything state that Casey stormed out of the house. It is a theory only perpetrated on blogs and that is my only problem with it.

  • no rocket scientist // July 8, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Dave,

    none of this makes sense, but sitting in jail for the past 8 months or so has not seemed to bother her, the fact that she will be sitting there for at least another year before a trial may take place doesn’t seem to bother her, so personlly I think 15 hours in a car would be a cinch for this girl, not that I think for sure that it happened, but she could easily have done that from what I have seen of her.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 12:04 pm

    Don’t you think it is the investigator’s job to do the investigating? See, what troubles me are people who assume something. OK, assume all you want, but in the meantime, I’m going to take the route law enforcement has taken and continues to do so. Say what you will, but at the end of the day, the state of Florida has more of a handle on this crime than bloggers, including me. I just happen to believe the state instead of emotional bloggers and commenters. At least, law enforcement sat down with them. Went into their home. Took out evidence. What did the bloggers to to usurp their authority?

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 12:07 pm

    Well then, coreysmom, if that’s the case and you wish to believe it happened the night of the 15th, that’s fine. It could have very well happened that way, but I will have to now delete all thoughts about search engine terms done months earlier, like chloroform and neck breaking. Those silly investigators. Why do they keep focusing on that kind of stuff?

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    Maybe where you come from, rocket, but have you ever been to Florida in the summer? To sit in a car for that many hours is a punishment worse than death. No, there is no possibility that she could have done that. Even if her air conditioning worked, her car would have overheated before it ran out of gas.

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 12:13 pm

    Heehee! Dave, it makes no sense to you or to me, BUT, we are talking about Casey! It may very well be what she did!
    I will say that you have a very good and valid point about the cell phone needing to be charged.

    Here is the reason I have a hard time believing George saw her-that he remembered what Caylee was wearing the last time he saw her a whole month ago. I find that hard to believe.
    Now, because LE has not discredited anything the Anthonys have said and are not pressing charges against them doesn’t prove George was being truthful about seeing Caylee on the 16th. They may not have done anything criminal in their lying. Whether George did or did not see Caylee that day really has no bearing on the case. LE has the 15th of June to go by, too.
    The State has called Cindy and George hostile witnesses. Maybe that’s because they are Casey’s parents OR because they have proven to be so in their LE/FBI interviews.
    Wasn’t it Yuri Melich who called Cindy out on her saying one thing to them and another thing to the press? He said she needed to be upfront and honest with him in order to help find Caylee.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 12:22 pm

    It is because they are Casey’s parents. I don’t understand why, when almost all parents of a suspect are called as state’s witnesses, they are hostile, but ONLY in the Anthonys’ case, it is because they lied and the state is somehow dumb enough to ignore it. These are just a few of the inconsistencies in what people are trying to say. Note that I say trying, because with this logic, I don’t understand it. I try to take an unemotional, factual position. You say that LE has not discredited anything the Anthonys have said. Why not? Everybody else has. Are the investigators stupid or something? You see my logic? To wit: You say that LE has not discredited them. I ask you, has LE credited any of the rumors about the night of the 15th? If and when they do that, I will be the first one to cross over to the other side, but until then, one person in particular called me illogical. How? Because I don’t agree with her? In order to be logical, something of that nature must be addressed by law, not bloggers. This is the ONLY reason why I am compelled to feel the way I do.

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 12:33 pm

    What are you talkin about in my last comment you responded to @ 12:07?

    I was serious about there being a possibility that duct tape may have been in Casey’s search on household weapons. I was coming around to your side of thins on the comp searches and the DP.
    The defense would have an easy time of discrediting those searches as the reason for premeditation. Breaknecks is a rock band, or neck breaking is a term people use and she wanted to know its meaning, the chloroform searches were because Casey wanted to know what it was after seeing it on Ricardo’s MySpace page, household weapons could be because she wanted to know what to use in case of self-defense. Those are only a few reasons for Casey’s searches. Its hard to know why or what prompted her searches. It isn’t very solid for evidence against her. Now, if there was duct tape in her household weapons search then we have something.

  • knight Owl // July 8, 2009 at 12:37 pm

    Hi Dave and all of you, i hope you all had a good 4th. The date 15th and 16th both are wrong. I am going to settle the squabble for all of you. The correct date is the 17th. Now for any that do not know the anthony’s own two dogs and a CAT. Remember the CAT part as this is important. why you say? that is how i learned the date was the 17th. You see my very smart cat Louie went to florida to visit his friend Anthony Cat. Louie and anthony cat saw and heard it all. The reason i have not told you guys way before now is because Louie cat was traumatized to the point he could not type it out on the computer for me. He has since recovered and typed it all out for me late last nite. just in time looks like too . ha. lol guys. okay now remember guys, the date is the 17th okay?

  • knight Owl // July 8, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    I give all of you credit for hanging in there as i can not hardly stand to read or type about the case much now. Until something new pops up i am just laying low so i can keep my good sense in tact. lol. But Dave i still hope to go to the trial if i am still alive by the time Ms.Lyons has time to stop teaching and gets on with the trial . lol

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 12:41 pm

    Sure, Coreysmom, but just because the defense will try to discredit any of it shouldn’t prohibit the prosecution of tying it in with the overall scheme of the crime. And my point about the Anthonys lying and the murder happening on the 15th doesn’t seem like the direction the state is going in. It was after the Anthonys were interviewed that the medical examiner made up that autopsy report with the 16th date on it. Dr. G was going with the assumption that George was telling the truth from information supplied by LE. I’m saying that in all of these months, that fact remains the same.

    Anyway, I’m going down to Suburban Drive. I’ll be back.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 12:44 pm

    Hi, knight Owl, it’s so good of you to drop by. I sure hope your cat is right, too. Those other 2 dates have brought nothing but trouble.

  • knight Owl // July 8, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    Dave when you get back from Surburban drive start a new post with the real date 17th. lol

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    I don’t believe you are being illogical. And, for the most part, those who disagree with you, or me, about the events have had logical reasoning, too.
    Trust me, in may not seem like it but your efforts are not wasted where I am concerned. I wouldn’t be here if I thought it was a waste of my time to hear out your explanations.
    Shoot! I just did the dishes thinking about some of the things you have said. If you were being illogical, why would I bother to do that?
    Must go for now. Enjoy your afternoon of picture taking. Bet the site will still bring up some emotional response from you, you have a sensitive heart.

  • knight Owl // July 8, 2009 at 12:47 pm

    Hi Dave, exactly. all this trouble over two dates 15th and 16th and who would have known they are both WRONG? and two cats have the real answer of all things. we must tell prosecutors. lol

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 12:48 pm

    Thank you, Coreysmom. Enjoy your day.

  • knight Owl // July 8, 2009 at 12:53 pm

    Dave, thanks on my stopping by . I wanted to say hello to you and everyone. This case is way old and we need for some new events to come out chat on. I can barely stand the old stuff anymore. It is making me nuts. Then the MJ on every station over and over the same stuff was making me nuts too.

  • knight Owl // July 8, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    Dave it is a beautiful day here so i am going out to get some sunshine. Have a good day . I will pop in again soon.

  • knight Owl // July 8, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    Dave this is Louie, i just wanted to tell you, you can count on the 17th being correct as us cats have memories like steel traps. meow~~ bye.

  • no rocket scientist // July 8, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    If the Dr. picked the 16th because that is what George said as the last date he saw Caylee, can you explain why, after all the proven lies they have told, they would choose to believe that that one remark was the truth? It is blatantly obvious that this family is totally in their comfrot zone when fabricating halftruths, and mistruths. To believe anything they said after the first “excited utterance” or whatever that is called is to be a fool.

  • Id'claire // July 8, 2009 at 1:27 pm

    no rocker scientist: if you are looking for a blog to speak your mind, this may be it. This is one of the best out there.

    But if you disagree with Dave, he will be affronted. If you say anything against the Anthonys, he will be affronted (altho’ he is not an Anthony lover) If you persist, you will be categorized as going against all Le, all the investigators, and becoming an Anthony psychologist-expert.

    Think of Dave’s heart, compliment him on his blog, say you’ll take into consideration what he has spent endless hours investigating, and then email your Aunt Marge about your opinions. She may enjoy hearing from you.

  • no rocket scientist // July 8, 2009 at 1:55 pm

    Thanks Id’Claire, by the way I love the catchy clever name you chose. A sign of intelligence & quick wit .

    I AM a hugh supporter of LE & i do think that they are not showing all their cards until they have to, that said, I am baffled by their latitude with the blatant lies told by this family. A lie is another way of impeding the investigation, which is an obstruction of justice. My opinion is that they are purposely giving the whole family all the rope they need to hang themselves and will secure the noose at the proper time. As long as Casey stays in jail, I will be a happy
    camper. It has to be killing her to miss party season in Orlando.

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    Knight Owl, I’ll go with your cat! 17th it is!! That is
    closer to decomposition period in time. Thanks :-)

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 2:20 pm

    no rocket scientist, “giving the family all the rope to
    hang themselves” @ 1.55 pm. For what purpose?
    What charges will then be brought against them?

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 2:57 pm

    It seems to me that charges against the person(s) who are on the prosecution’s witness list would hurt the case especially since the statements being made are not under oath. Then there is also the matter of time needed to prosecute if charges were filed. This case is already going to be a monster.

  • LosAngeles // July 8, 2009 at 3:02 pm

    Again, if Persons A, B, and C were to say XYZ with a purely malicious intent, it doesn’t automatically mean that when Persons D, E, and F say XYZ that they’re also doing it with a purely malicious intent.

    That would be painting everyone who says XYZ with the same brush and putting them all in the same category and saying that they’re speaking with a purely malicious intent.

    Not every single individual has the same intent as all other individuals.

    *****
    Beatrice, it’s okay for people to disagree with each other. It doesn’t mean that one particular opinion has a sinister purpose to it, re your July 8, 5:44 am
    comment.
    Wouldn’t it be childish if someone said “If you disagree with me on such-and-such, it means that you’re evil or hateful”?

    If you have time, you should read all the comments on this blog and see how reasonable and calm most of the comments are here.
    If you read ALL the comments here, you’ll see that nobody is being hateful at all!

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 3:07 pm

    Well, IF there are charges, I believe it will be from the FBI end. They don’t play games where evidence is concerned, Kathi Belich gave emails from Cindy to Garrison to the FBI. Belich stated that one of the emails sent to her said Cindy wanted to give the dogs’ toothbrush to them. Oh, and giving of the hairbrush that was used by both Casey and Caylee. This was way back when Cindy had her email supposedly hacked. The hacker then sent certain implicating emails, 4 of them, I think, to Belich. She realized what happened and knew Cindy would not send such content to her. So, she let Cindy know that she sent them to the FBI.
    Now, why was it the Anthonys wanted immunity again?
    Silence from LE/FBI doesn’t, to me, mean there aren’t charges down the road. I think that it may come after the trial is over for Casey.

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 3:08 pm

    As to the fifteenth or sixteenth being the date of death, the LE has all information and concluded from that investigative information the death occurred on the sixteenth. To dispute that date at this time only weakens the coroner’s conclusions and opinion.

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 4:05 pm

    LA, I have been as much a part as anyone, in questioning the 16th. because of the 31 days, and I have questioned just how involved Cindy and George are in covering for Casey, then realized, in such a position I “could” also lie, while still loveing and painfully accepting what she did, have no desire to see
    my daughter get the DP. You are absolutely right, not “everyone” has “deliberate” intent to nullify another person’s theory on this case. I do ask the purpose of 15, 16, 17 etc…….. Does it add anything to “Casey’s punishment” or does it only prove her parents lying. If they are covering up how are they to be procecuted for doing so, except by public opinion. Personally, I keep digging at Tony Lazzaro, leaving myself open to getting blasted because in my opinion as it is tocay, I believe he is one who could be not telling the “whole truth” My stubborness will not allow me to let go of what I think sent Casey over the top. ( I am one of few who accepts that Casey has something wrong with her mentality) some call it sociopath. There are people with sociopath personalities who never kill. So I believe, even with a sociopathic personality it took some emotional disturbance for her to kill her child. And I do not believe it was ONLY between her mother and herself. I have asked several times for any comment as to when Tony and Casey first hooked up. If it was before or after she started “planning” to commit premediated murder, because if her “planning” was before they ever met, then every thought I have will be banished and I am wrong, very wrong and will accept it. I do realize that all could be right on any date. (I suggest later than any of the two in conflict, because of the length of time for decomposition and have related to that several times. Tony not smelling anything from the car, yet from the 15/16 surely there was more than ample time for that odor to be detectable. I write through a hole in my head and LE as far as I know have it down pat. Soooooooooo
    What is your take on all of this aside from clearly and “fairly” analyzing that of each commenter.

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    I gotcha on that, Newbie. I believe that Caylee was murdered in the wee hours of the 16th. To believe that means I don’t believe that George did see Caylee. Nothing but a “reportedly” says he did. If prosecution brings it up with George on the stand of course he will say that he saw her. The more I think on this the more I can’t see that it matters if he did or not. Casey was the last to see her, not George. The autopsy report’s opinion is that Caylee was killed in mid-June but does not say the day. I don’t think the day will be all that crucial since no one else is involved with helping Casey do the evil deed.

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 4:23 pm

    LA, I was one that was entangeled in the “hateful” of commenters on some past blogs of others and through them came to believe that Cindy and George “must” have been why Casey did this because some posts and commenters writings were dedicated to destroying this whole family. Thank’s to Dave’s blog, posts and commenters, I believe I have somewhat more balance yet still have own thoughts, some I share, some not.

  • laura // July 8, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    Hi everyone. Good points brought up today. Knight Owl it is good to see you dropped by. Your poor cat must be horrified at his knowledge! lol Dave I hope you are still feeling good!

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 4:30 pm

    Agreed. I don’t know when Caylee was murdered but the important thing is that George didn’t say he saw Caylee on the 25th of June or whatever. To me, the Findings of Fact by the coroner had to have the last sighting of Caylee to establish in total the Conclusions/Opinion. The investigative info/evidence was accepted by the coroner who did not say it was the best available but that is what I think…..there was no evidence other than the sixteenth submitted by Le.

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    Beatrice, I had to laugh about your being entangled with the hateful commentators. At least you had bad examples !! I still have extremely bad thoughts about George and Cindy and no one has influenced me but them !

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 4:41 pm

    You’re right, Newbie. It is the best they have for a day. They wouldn’t be wrong using the 15th, either. They have no reason to question George’s testimony but, I think, it is because it isn’t all that necessary to dispute it due to the Father’s day video showing Caylee alive.

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 4:44 pm

    Hi, laura! You need to soothe the savage beast! I think i have raised his BP up a notch or two…
    :eek:

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    Yes, and George’s statements gives a basis to form an opinion on time of death. I don’t see any stronger witness than the father of the defendant making that statement. Lie or not, the last time Caylee was seen by anyone but her mother is locked in by his statements.

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 4:47 pm

    Laura, how is your daughter doing today???

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 4:49 pm

    Newbie, I can also be swayed by “not-hateful”. Those who rightfully have and express their opinion in a kindly way, like you.

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    Oh Beatrice, I could kiss you for that compliment. lol lol I needed that today. I try to keep my hands off the keys when I feel “ugly.”

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    Newbie, How is your daughter-in-law doing? Anything
    positive going on? Prayers!

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 4:55 pm

    Laura, Surely all will be well soon. May Blessings be on
    you and girls.

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 4:57 pm

    Detwill, You may know by now if your relative is thru
    surgery. Surely hope all news is positive and encouraging.

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    There have been two serious TIA’s within this last week and a half. I think I detailed what is happening on the Health Econversations post. Many prayers are needed. Appreciate your asking and your prayers !

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 5:07 pm

    Newbie, Uhhh, depends on the kind of kiss, Maybe I
    am just not ready yet, :-) But thanks, I needed something
    today also.

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    lol…take the “I could Kiss You” as you would the “Holier Than Thou”…..just an expression. I am female and really don’t pass kisses out to other women ! lol

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    Darn after saying that it hit me I don’t pass kisses to men either….hmph.

  • laura // July 8, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    Hi ladies, she is sleeping right now and no fever, THANK GOD! I have to sneak because no cell phones in the hospital so it takes me a while to get back with you sorry about that. Thanks for caring enough to ask. I hope all of you are well how rude of me to say that earlier! I will be back later to check in, I hope Dave is okay. Maybe he is writing a new post for tomorrow. :)

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    Actually, Laura, I just got home. I went back down to Suburban Drive to take some pictures and explore another area while I was there. Yes, I will be writing another post about it.

    I’m so happy your daughter’s fever broke.Hopefully she will get to go home soon. If you have the time, call me later. Thanks for checking in.

  • LosAngeles // July 8, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    I’m glad to hear that she doesn’t have a fever anymore, Laura. That is good news.

  • LosAngeles // July 8, 2009 at 5:47 pm

    My take on it is that everyone can play around with their own ideas about what happened.

    No one has to try to SWAY anyone else to their own ideas.
    No one has to try to accuse someone else of being hateful or a nitwit. That’s all.

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    LA, Got it! I have been e-mailed that I am a Dave
    Knechel butt kisser, I did not do it, so Who did??? :-)

    I was going to play with Newbie and ask her, but she already stated, she doesn’t kiss. Just kidding Newbie.

    Love you both!

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 6:09 pm

    Exactly, LA.

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Better to be a butt kisser than butt biter. All you would get from Dave is scar tissue.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:11 pm

    Dear no rocket scientist – Suppose I could ever show you pictures, a document, a sit down interview with George Anthony; something that could prove a point – any point you call a blatant lie, would you think I was lying? That I forged a document? You see, if law enforcement were as biased as you, the world of law would be a shambles. I am glad my police down here, where I live in Orlando, are doing great work. If you were the chief, there would be no trial and the entire family would be erased from the face of the earth. It seems to me, I remember a guy like him in Germany once.

    Now, don’t take offense, I’m not nearly as prejudiced as you.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:14 pm

    I hate to blow up any rockets, but the state of Florida has already weighed in and said there will be no, zero, zilch, charges against any of the Anthonys. The one they are focusing on still sits in jail and she won’t be getting out soon. You’re right, Newbie, it’s going to be bigger than a double-butted Godzilla monster.

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 6:15 pm

    Newbie, YES!!

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:17 pm

    LosAngeles – I must say that Beatrice is the most level-headed person on this blog. She always maintains a calm demeanor, even when her point is opposite of the comment she is addressing and she sure does read all of the comments. I’d like to have a thousand of her, not that I wouldn’t want quite a few of you, mind you.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    The Anthonys did not request immunity per se. It was their attorney that put a request in, which is not all that unusual. Unusual? Yes, but by the time the bloggers got through with it, it was like running them through a strainer. It’s no different than all those people who squawked about some of the key players, like Roy Kronk, lawyering up. “Well, if he didn’t do anything wrong, he doesn’t need a lawyer. He’s guilty of something. I have a gut feeling.” Only, in real life, people do need lawyers and in law, gut feelings don’t count. Interestingly, every single one of those people are now willing to donate to Anthony Lazzaro’s lawyer fees. What??? Huh??? What happened to all those skeptical people?

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    Dave. you have to say something bad to me or else I am
    in deep trouble. At what level is my head :-) No don’t
    tell me. By the way, just tell me how tall are you and I
    will try and figure out if I could kiss your butt.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:28 pm

    What the state is looking at is from all investigations performed as of today, there has been nothing shown to dispute George Anthony’s testimony under oath during his OCSO interview. Based on that information and no other showing the 15th, that is the assessment at this time. I think it would be foolish if investigators merely took George’s word for it. They poked and probed. They spent countless hours deciding what date to send to the medical examiner. Sure, it’s speculative,but it will remain that date until someone proves otherwise. Beatrice said it best. She said people are going to believe it’s the 15th just to spite the Anthonys and that is so, so wrong.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:34 pm

    Oops, knight Owl, I missed some of your comments. Louie the Cat. 17th. May I interview him first? Purrfect!

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:34 pm

    You go girl!

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    I’m glad you liked my SCOTUS testimony, LosAngeles! One thing you must admit. My posts do start up discussions, left, right, up and down.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    I don’t bite! I nibble.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    I’m not as tall when I bend over, Beatrice.

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 6:43 pm

    Thanks, Dave. I understand about the lawyering up, but did not remember what you had said before concerning the immunity. I do remember that the Anthonys said they would be consistant in their testimonies via Brad Conway.
    LE may not have a thing on the Anthonys, but the FBI just might. Do I care one wit about that? Nope. I don’t make “hang’em and hang ‘em high!” comments. If there are charges to be had, it will be from the FBI. If…and it will be after the trial. That’s as far as I go with it. ‘Cause I could care less. I’m only irked at hearing lies and stories from Cindy and George’s backpeddling. It, rightly so, makes me question the truthfulness of all that they say.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    Sure thing, Coreysmom. It is my understanding that every investigative service employed in this case has no desire to pursue any charges against the Anthonys. The immunity in question, I believe, stemmed from issues like the hairbrush, in particular. In the end, the mitochondrial DNA was enough to tie the little body to the Anthony family. It became a “so what” kind of thing. In the meantime, while the FBI and every other entity went about its business taking care of business, the bloggers went nuts.

  • Beatrice // July 8, 2009 at 7:00 pm

    Now that I have Dave in the position I want him to be
    (bent over) and have spilled my guts in the last couple
    days, will be moving out for awhile. Things to attend to. My best to everyone, keep up the good work, it keeps you all young and from what I hear, using the brain extends one’s life beyond imagination. You are all within your own right, in thought and it has been a pleasure to be in this mixed company. May peek in
    once in awhile to see what you are all up to, and get a kiss from Newbie, but right now not much to say that I have not already. Be the best you can be, and all be Blessed. Sincerely!

  • Diana // July 8, 2009 at 7:06 pm

    Dave* Correct me if I am wrong here, but are you saying that you think that the Anthonys have never lied about anything? I totally understand if you choose not to open that can of worms……….but I am very curious just the same.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    Oh, heavens to goodness, Diana, I would never think such a thing. Of course they lied, but so did Bill Clinton. Under oath. Anyway, not to take away from their lies, my point is that bloggers go overboard. They think every word out of their mouths are lies and that’s not fair. Heck, politicians lie all the time and get away with it. I know, they never killed anybody, but neither did George and Cindy. My only debate about the date and every other thing that sometimes separates us has been one thing and one thing only. Please let me explain.

    Law enforcement is as close as it’s going to get to this case. Not you, not me. I trust them. I live here. I see and read. Not to take away from people around the world who have thoughts on this crime, no, not at all, my point is all about law enforcement. To me, it’s as if people out there are subliminally stating that our police stink. Our prosecutors are junk. The entire state of Florida is the pits because they sure as heck don’t have a clue when it comes to George and Cindy. That has been the brunt of my argument all along, with a few more opinions thrown in. I mean, let law enforcement do its job. They are highly trained professionals. If they have chosen not to pursue charges of any kind against them, what part about that do people not understand? You see, it was never really, really about the Anthonys. To me, it’s all about either not understanding the law or treating our state like crap. How would you like it if millions of people came into your world and threw insults all the time? If someone would give the cops credit for a change, it would be a nice gesture. If the Attorney General of the State of Florida chooses not to prosecute the Anthonys, what has he done wrong? What does he not understand that all of the bloggers seem to know?

    I hope that makes sense. It is not intended to be insulting to anyone. I just look at things through a pragmatic pair of glasses. Hate them. Mock them. But remember, every time someone questions why the crooks aren’t in jail, it makes us look like we are inept. And we are not.

    By the way, that was an excellent, excellent question.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 7:51 pm

    Beatrice, you are a wonderful woman and am so thankful you have graced us all with your presence. Please do not stay away long. I know you have a busy life, but life without you is not nearly as nice as life without your great words of wisdom. Take good care and do come back, if just to say hello. God bless you, good, kind soul.

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 8:08 pm

    God bless you, Beatrice!

  • Coreysmom // July 8, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    This definition of being pragmatic is your stance:
    - concerned with practical results: more concerned with practical results than with theories and principles

    Yep, that’s where you want to come from! I understand now. I’ve heard of pragmatism in Christianity and its never a good thing so I had to figure out if that was what you meant. I see that there are a few definitions but this is the one that fits.
    Learn something new everyday….

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 8:26 pm

    That fits me to a tee, Coreysmom. Funny, too, because I’ve never thought in black and white. I’ve been more of a shades of gray kind of guy all my life, and I always dream in color.

  • Diana // July 8, 2009 at 9:04 pm

    Thanks *Dave
    I have the upmost respect for LE in this case. After listening to the interrogation tapes (more times than I want to know) I was very impressed with the Detectives questioning Casey. They gave her many “outs”, and even after knowing she was lying, they treated her with respect and let her ramble on and on about very obvious ficticious characters that lived in her head. When Yuri Melich said to her……..No one is believeing what your saying because everthing that comes out of your mouth is a lie………..She still goes on with the bogus story. Amazing. Too bad there was no video. I would have loved to have seen her body language.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 9:26 pm

    My pleasure, Diana!

    You know how Michael Jackson was almost like a real, live Peter Pan? He was a child at heart and never wanted to grow up. In a sense, I can see a little bit of that in Casey. No, not the childish innocence or anything like that. It’s more of a thing where she never did develop emotionally. She always got her way through whining, crying and manipulation. You could see it in her parents, how they dropped to their knees for her, in the jail interviews. I hate to say it this way, but she always got away with murder. She got what she wanted. In her childish ways, it was merely the demands to get her way and she never once gave consequences any thought because no matter what it was, she always got away with it. Her parents looked the other way. Her parents pampered her. “Maybe, she’ll get better one day.” “Oh, she’s just going through, you know, one of those phases.” Only, she never stopped going through her own phases. As the rest of the world grew up around her, she stayed the same. The major difference was that she treated a human being like junk when she got tired of playing with her. Combine that with the fact that she was losing the attention war with her daughter and it spelled trouble. The most blame I place on her parents is for enabling her. The rest is superfluous. What she did was her own doing. Now, her parents must wonder, “What have we done?!!!” And what they are doing now is a natural thing. They are trying to compensate for their mistakes by lying if they must to protect her. I guess it could only be the parents of a monster who suffer the most pain; the consternation of it, the magnitude of the crime and the loss of two people, one of which they want to take back and do it all over again. But they can’t. They are confused. They are in turmoil. They feel as guilty as Casey doesn’t. In any event, what they failed to teach her or what she failed to learn was all about consequences. She was never punished. Therefore, she thought the police would let her skate right on by. What a mistake, but she never realized what a mistake was to begin with. In the end, I solely blame her because, no matter what, she was an adult when she killed and no court appointed psychologist is ever going to find her unfit to stand trial. This time she’ll finally be punished, but will it be enough for her to understand she did a horrible thing or will she blame it on her parents? That’s a heavy weight around the Anthonys shoulders and they’ll live with it forever.

  • Kari // July 8, 2009 at 9:27 pm

    Id’Claire, I have enjoyed your comments, and found you to be a good conversati0nalist, but I must take exception to your remark to No Rocket Scientist suggesting Dave does not tolerate opposing viewpoints.

    I have stated my opinions several times, without feeling that Dave was affronted by them.

    In fact there are a continual barrage of opposing viewpoints being discussed here. I believe anyone who can approach the subject in a polite, civilized manner can state any opinion they like, here. As an opinion.

    Maybe that’s where people get tangled up, when they are confident enough in their opinions to state them as facts. Dave likes to deal in facts and will tromp on anyone who confuses opinion with fact.

    Detwill frequently rises to the challenge and we get some spirited debates with fact vs. fact, quote contradicting quote, etc.

    Well, then again, maybe I’m wrong. I mean, theoretically a person would be within their rights to make a statement of personal opinion such as, “There is some evidence indicating Cindy Anthony has lied, and my personal opinion is that she is a worthless so-and-so who ought to hang alongside her murdering daughter!” But in practice, Dave might discourage such hateful sentiments, honest though they might be…

    Maybe if you just left out the ’so-and-so’ it might pass muster. Some people just seem to take this whole thing so darn personally, they really seethe with anger at this family in Florida that they’ve never even met. It’s weird.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 9:38 pm

    Hi, Kari – You’re pretty much right on with your assessment, but I have a minor discrepancy with one thing. I don’t mind if people want to think of the Anthonys as liars. They have lied and everyone is free to say so. The thing that irks me is that too many people base ideas on their own personal views. They think every word out of their mouths is nothing more than lies. Therefore, if Cindy says it’s white, certain bloggers insist it’s black because all Cindy knows how to do is lie. Then they spew off how much they hate her. My God, what if law enforcement was as biased as them? No one would ever get to trial, let alone have a fair one. That’s when I get upset the most because their “facts” are nothing more than their own emotions.

  • Kari // July 8, 2009 at 10:00 pm

    Oh, see, now I have an opposing opinion!

    I’ve aired it before, but I’ll trot it out again, just because I can. I don’t believe that Casey is the result of her upbringing. I base my opinion on my own personal experience, having been intimately acquainted with a diagnosed sociopath, one of my exes. Casey must be a lot like him. He is a very loving person, but also completely selfish. It took me a long time to come to a conclusion for myself about what was wrong with him. For me, this thing called sociopathy boils down to this: other people’s feelings just are not real to this person.

    You can sometimes see this in little children. They are playing with a stick and they hit their brother! Parents say, No! That hurt your brother! Tell him you’re sorry and you won’t do it again.

    Normal kids feel guilty, feel sympathy, and learn that this behavior is bad because it hurts brother. Sociopathic kids just don’t feel guilty, don’t feel sympathy, never understand that brother’s hurt is real.

    They do learn that if parents see you do this, you get yelled at. They learn that to shut parents, and brother, up, you have to lie, to act the part.

    The parents are doing all the right stuff, it just never really clicks with this kid who cannot feel others’ pain.

    My ex is lucky because he at least really wants to be loved, to have relationships, and he has learned, through lots of counseling, to basically just fake it. It kind of creeps me out that he will make statements to me in conversation like, “I’m sorry you feel bad.” and I know it is only a sort of conversational ploy for him. A sort of lip service, as it were, to normalcy.

    I do not think Cindy and George could have raised Casey differently and changed who she is. I also think that because of the dynamic of being her mother, Cindy has wound up being Casey’s primary victim, and instead of Cindy trying to cover up and protect her, I think it really is a case of folie a deux. Cindy believes what Casey tells her because of their crazy relationship, because if/when she stops believing, she will have to acknowledge to herself that Casey has never really cared about her mother in a normal way, has always been utterly selfish.

    That’s my opinion. None of us have any information about Casey’s childhood, not that I have heard, nor about Casey’s diagnosis, either for that matter. So we can all make our best guess.

  • Kari // July 8, 2009 at 10:08 pm

    Yes, Dave, I know you think Cindy has lied. Interesting, the way you put it makes me think of the old adage, “Even the devil can tell the truth sometimes.” Or even a stopped watch is right twice a day?

    From your point of view, having told a few lies in the interest of saving her daughter does not make Cindy an inveterate liar, nor a really bad person. Just a misguided one.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 10:08 pm

    I think it was Casey’s fault, for sure. Lee grew up fine, so why didn’t Casey? She got away with murder alright but did her parents enable her without knowing it? Sure, why not. That’s not to say they did anything wrong. But that won’t stop them from feeling that way. All that time, her parents had no idea and today, they must wonder where they went wrong. I’m not saying they did, but it seems to me she was handled with kid gloves. I know what would happen to me if I stole from my family. Do I know for a fact how they were raised? Of course not.

  • Marinade Dave // July 8, 2009 at 10:16 pm

    I know when I went to Caylee’s memorial, the Anthonys seemed so sincere, and they were. Far from perfect, I’ll give them leeway. They need it. In the meantime, I need my sleep, so I will say good night for now.

  • Diana // July 8, 2009 at 10:35 pm

    Goodnight *Dave
    See you tomarrow :)

  • Newbie // July 8, 2009 at 11:52 pm

    Kari, “lip service” ….exactly. What a great way to explain what is complicated.

  • Sheron // July 9, 2009 at 2:12 am

    It’s late. I’m speed reading to catch up. Obviously lots going on here.

    I just want to reiterate, I can understand both sides of the 15th and 16th believers. Particularly since I went from a 16th to 15th opinion. I totally get both! I could argue both dates in a court of law.

    I don’t understand why this has to cause truly hurt feelings among commentors who have been commenting with each other for months.

    And for the people that say why does it even matter? Caylee is dead! Who cares what date?! I get that, too!

    But, as I have commented before, it does matter. If the 15th is the last day anybody saw Caylee alive – that was a Sunday evening, and Casey was the last person seen with Caylee.

    If the 16th is the last day – that was a Monday (work day) and Casey was taking Caylee to the nanny.

    15th – Casey is only suspect.
    16th – Nanny is strong suspect, followed by Casey.

    It really does matter.

  • Kari // July 9, 2009 at 2:34 am

    Sheron, do you believe there was a nanny? How could there have been a nanny who no one has ever met, no one, after a whole year, has come forward to say they knew her in any capacity.

    She never babysat for anyone else, she didn’t work with anyone anywhere, she wasn’t a regular customer at any store or restaurant, no family member ever dropped off or picked up Caylee from her house. No one had her phone number, her address, her references, a cancelled check, a note from her, a phone message, nothing?

    I’d like to be convinced, so tell me what you’ve got!

  • Sheron // July 9, 2009 at 3:43 am

    That’s what I am saying, Kari!

    No nanny. So, if you go with 15th – no nanny involvd. Go with the 16th – it’s all nanny.

    Hmm, is George lying? To make sure someone else than his daughter is involved.

    This can get really complicated with family loyalty and stuff. We haven’t been faced with anything like this – so really none of us can know what it is like. Dave can say George would never lie – but Dave has never been there. I just MIGHT lie for my kid if I thought they were innocent. I can’t say for sure. Thank God, I haven’t been there.

  • Sheron // July 9, 2009 at 3:53 am

    And let me say – THERE WAS NEVER ANY NANNY!! Except for Detwill’s comments about how Casey WAS the nanny.

    Not in a Sybil way. Casey knew exactly what she was doing. Just blamed it on the nanny. In her psychotic way. Not insane. Not split personality.

    Just mean.

  • laura // July 9, 2009 at 9:22 am

    Good morning everyone. I hope you are all well. I am in the room with my daughter so I will check back in later. I miss all of you ladies and Dave. It is not easy only being able to sneak in and read a couple of comments and have to leave because I am addicted to you all, I hope that makes everyone smile. Oh and I know you all are addicted to so don’t judge me. LOL :)

  • Coreysmom // July 9, 2009 at 10:22 am

    Good morning, laura! Hope this is a good day for you and your daughter!
    Addicted? Who, me? Okay, I confess…when Dave took down the posts I got the shakes…
    :shock:

  • Kari // July 9, 2009 at 11:32 am

    Yes, Laura and Coreysmom, I really felt bereaved when I tried to check into Marinadeland and it was just gone! Like, all my friends were on the same boat and it was lost at sea, or something. I’m very happy to have Dave back, with his faithful harem.

  • Weezie // July 9, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Good heavens, I must have been sleeping, or partying or going to the Dr.????? In any case, what would life be without Marinade Dave?? I don’t even want to think about that right now. Let’s all stay adrift in our Noah’s ark and make like friends.

  • Kari // July 9, 2009 at 12:09 pm

    Sheron, ok, I get you. You don’t believe in a nanny, but you think George and Cindy, believing in a nanny, are highly motivated to ‘remember’ Casey and Caylee being in the home the morning of the 16th, before going to the nanny.

    Gosh, after a month, they were asked to remember, well, when’s the last time anyone saw her, and what was she wearing, etc., not surprising if even they aren’t certain.

    Some might think that being the last time they saw her, the details would naturally be etched in their minds, but they didn’t know it was the last time, not for a month, and then, at first they all said it had been the 9nth, not the 16th. So, I think there’s room for some doubts.

    But I agree with Dave that we ought to go along with LE, and accept George’s statement that the 16th was the last day anyone saw Caylee. We have nothing else to go on, but just wild speculation. Oh, and then there’s the cell phone pings.

    I’m not a big cell person myself, I keep one just for emergencies, so pings don’t seem to me like iron-clad proof, either. The pings are a negative in my mind. Had they shown her leaving, it would have been proof positive because a cell phone cannot leave on its own. But a cell phone can stay home on its own, and even perhaps receive calls and take messages.

    Still, she’s supposed to have talked to Tony for over an hour that night, so that’s a positive. And having visited Florida in June, I do not believe she was anywhere out of doors for that hour.

    And I heartily agree with Dave’s statement that LE are no fools, and most likely have evidence that we have not seen. I don’t imagine that we armchair detectives will have formed a clearer picture of the case than the professional investigators.

  • Marinade Dave // July 9, 2009 at 1:22 pm

    Sorry about missing the good mornings, but I had family matters to take care of and a post to write that I was way too tired to do yesterday.

  • Marinade Dave // July 9, 2009 at 1:34 pm

    There was no nanny and either day still only points to one person, the one in jail.

  • Marinade Dave // July 9, 2009 at 1:39 pm

    I would never say that George Anthony has never told a lie any more than I would ever say that he never told the truth.

  • Sheron // July 9, 2009 at 4:21 pm

    Yes, Kari! I absolutely believe there is no nanny, but do I think maybe Cindy and George believed it? Yes.

    And Dave, you are missing my point on why it does matter about the date. I realize only one person is in jail. But that would be because they could not find a ZG to put in jail. If the 16th is correct – ZG is the number one suspect.

    If the 15th is correct – it’s all Casey.

    Not arguing here – just making sure you understand why I changed my opinion. Hope all is well with your family! I understand family matters.

  • Marinade Dave // July 9, 2009 at 4:25 pm

    That’s not really a way to rationalize it, Sheron, because whatever date Caylee died, it doesn’t matter. Casey blamed it on Zani, be it the 15, 16, 17 or 18. The actual date of death means nothing if someone believes any story of hers.

  • Sheron // July 9, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    LOL!! Round and round we go! Where we stop, nobody knows.

    ZG cannot be held accountable on the 15th. The mystery nanny who is still out there somewhere IS accountable on the 16th.

    Kinda like OJ. Dates are important.

    Like I said, I could debate either date. Both have great circumstantial proof. I just happen to believe the 16th.

    If I am wrong, proven in court, no problem at all coming to your home and doing all your laundry, cooking you dinner, shining your shoes, etc.

    I don’t have a stake in being wrong. If I am wrong, I am wrong. I am going with my instincts.

  • Sheron // July 9, 2009 at 7:53 pm

    LOL! I am so silly.

    I meant I believe the 15th. I can’t even keep up anymore!

  • Marinade Dave // July 9, 2009 at 7:58 pm

    I believe, too, Sheron, but I’m not sure what I believe in any more.

  • Sheron // July 9, 2009 at 10:04 pm

    MD, belive in Jesus. He is my friend that follows me around, and I talk to Him all the time. He is my pal. My best buddy.

    Sure, He’s messed my life up lately. I am confident He is teaching me something. Like death is better than taxes. If heaven is so fun, why do we care when we die?

  • Marinade Dave // July 9, 2009 at 10:06 pm

    It wasn’t that type of believing I was thinking of. It’s about the date. I don’t know what to think anymore.

  • Diana // July 13, 2009 at 8:16 am

    LE could believe that Casey suffocated Caylee in the house on the 16th because they removed the bed pillows from Caseys room. But I’m confused about how they could tell if someone used a pillow, since it would have dna on it naturally.

  • Marinade Dave // July 13, 2009 at 8:57 am

    Good morning, Diana – I think that LE would take anything and everything they can in hopes that some of it would yield clues. A lot of what investigators collect is hit or miss, but one of the hits might garner key evidence in the end.

  • Snowy // July 13, 2009 at 5:45 pm

    It’s always nice to have an official doc. Gotta luv the docs! :-)

    Yet I am also a great believer of the 15th. Whether or not Casey was home is a moot point. I am thinking (pretty much almost and fairly sure) that computer forensics place her there the morning of the 16th (upload IP address). So no more conjecture is needed as to her (and Caylee’s) whereabouts on the 16th.

    So my reasoning about those two days becomes this. I believe that an argument did occur on the 15th (verified by neighbors) and Casey may well have stormed off with or without Caylee. Doesn’t matter because LE has placed them at the house on the morning of the 16th. But was Caylee alive the morning of the 16th? That is what needs to be determined. I do not believe Caylee was alive the morning of the 16th & that George saw her leave the house with Casey. The cooking show he claims to have been watching was never aired at that time (somebody researched this) & during a media interview he slipped and said he was watching the news (Cindy corrected him). Need I say anymore?

    I also surmise that both theories – premeditated & unpremeditated come together rather nicely. Yes, Casey thought and planned a life without Caylee and that plan was near full development at the time of the argument on the 15th. Casey made the mistake of letting this particular argument filled with Cindy’s relentless abuse ‘get to her.’ She next implements this ‘plan’ before some things were completely thought out. And then we have months & months of inconsistent statements by Anthony family members (verified thru doc & video, as well as a media statement by B. Conway about possible obstruction charges) that give good credence to their dishonesty and possible cover-up. As you show in your article Cindy & George were not anxious to be grandparents and they resented the financial burden. I can only imagine that they now blame themselves for ‘driving’ Casey to it. As R. Grund has stated : Casey had no support at home. Poor Caylee.

  • Marinade Dave // July 13, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    Hi, Snowy! Very good to hear from you.

    Without going into anything on the two dates in question, the mere fact that the first-degree murder indictment clearly states premeditation, it precludes all else. The state charged her with premeditated murder, so some sort of plan had been in the works. As for why Casey didn’t just drive to Lazzaro’s apartment on Sunday night, I don’t have a clue. She had, after all, been staying there on most nights.

  • Snowy // July 15, 2009 at 12:49 pm

    Dave – she may well have (gone over to Lazzaro’s) on the 15th. I guess what I am saying is that wherever she went after the supposed argument she did return to the Anthony home as per home desktop computer activity on the 16th. Why wouldn’t she just stay there (Lazzaro’s) if things were bad at home? I believe Lazzaro did not want Caylee spending nights at his apt. And if that is where she went then she probably left Caylee at home. Why not stay somewhere else then? I guess Casey did not feel the argument much different from many other disagreements and returned home eventually.

    And just to clarify further why I think George may have been dishonest about seeing Caylee on the 16th are his phone records for that day. From what I understand he leaves the house at 2:45 yet calls the Anthony home at 3:02 and next Casey’s cell at 3:04 pm. This indicates he knew Casey was still at the house – not on her way to Zanny’s apt.

  • snoopysleuth // July 15, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Snowy~~very good! I see you have done your homework. You mentioned that Casey may have stayed at Tony’s the night of June 15th. I am of the understanding that her cell phone pings put her in the vicinity of Hopespring. Why would she talk to Tony until 3am if she was at his place? Any thoughts on this?

  • Id'claire // July 15, 2009 at 2:36 pm

    Snowy, I didn’t know the cooking show info. was refuted! He was so adamant about that. Also, your tracking of George’s calls do put him in question. Why do you think he wants so badly to have seen them that day?

  • Coreysmom // July 15, 2009 at 3:28 pm

    Id’clare, I think it was Cindy that coached him about “seeing” Caylee and Casey that day. Cindy doesn’t want anyone to think the fight of the 15th would be a motive for Caylee’s disappearance/demise.

  • snoopysleuth // July 15, 2009 at 3:44 pm

    Coreysmom~~you are right on…MOTIVE…
    Cindy writes the scripts and directs the players.

  • snoopysleuth // July 15, 2009 at 3:53 pm

    Did Cindy direct George in his suicide attempt?
    George has lost a granddaughter, his daughter is in jail accused of a crime she did not commit and his distraught wife is ready to fold. Cindy and Casey need him and he decides to snuff out his life. Does this make any sense to you?

    I almost forgot, Cindy also wrote a couple suicide notes during the time she believed Caylee was missing. Didn’t she want Caylee’s grandma to be there to give her that big hug when she was finally found?
    Does this make any sense?

  • Coreysmom // July 15, 2009 at 5:27 pm

    Heehee, Detwill39, I believe you are the one who said that Cindy was fearful of the fight becoming a motive for the murder a long time ago….
    I’m your student, doncha know!

  • Coreysmom // July 15, 2009 at 5:34 pm

    I pretty much stay mum on George’s suicide attempt. He had been drinking and, who knows, he may have had a few under his belt from a local bar before going to the motel. When a person has one too many, if they are mentally unstable, they can want to die. Alcohol is a depressant.
    Now, as far as Cindy goes, that was a bunch of hooey! (wanted to say something else there-ahem) Cindy was out for sympathy-she is a drama queen.

  • snoopysleuth // July 15, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    Coreysmom~~ well I am flattered but I think we are about equal. I have read all of your comments here. It is evident that you do your homework and just don’t comment to see your type show up on the screen. You come across as taking this case as serious as I do.

    I love it when folks come in and tell us to go outside in the HOT sun and pull weeds in our garden. There is a contest out in my garden, will the plants or weeds survive? I may have to acquire a taste for weeds.

  • Coreysmom // July 15, 2009 at 8:57 pm

    LOL, Detwill39!
    I was just out in my veggie patch and saw a hole and thought it was the garter snakes home…until…a mouse ran into it! I quickly covered one hole and poured water in the other and, boy!, did the baby mice run out! No wonder I had no strawberries this year! That hole was right next to the patch I have.
    I do take this case seriously. That’s why I leave certain sites that are going off into too many different directions in the posts. I like it here the best now because I can find good info and answers. You are admired by me for all that you have done in research. And are still doing! I know that your Caylee file on your comp is many times fatter than mine! :grin:

  • snoopysleuth // July 15, 2009 at 9:32 pm

    Coreysmom~~what a sin about your strawberries. I would rather a mouse than a snake any day.

    I have a few web sites with lots of info in my favorites and used to take a few notes. Most of my info comes from memory, I have read the docs so many times. I do check at Blinks almost daily and sometimes Websleuths. Google is my best friend.

    I heard somewhere that we may get some more docs at the end of the month. It is just like Christmas when I get my hands on new stuff.

  • Coreysmom // July 15, 2009 at 9:55 pm

    New doc?! Can’t wait!

  • snoopysleuth // July 15, 2009 at 10:02 pm

    Dave just set up a new post..

  • Marinade Dave // July 16, 2009 at 9:47 am

    Snowy (2009/07/15 at 12:49pm) – Casey was at Lazzaro’s on Sunday, but since George and Cindy had to work the following day, she had to care for Caylee. She never returned to his apartment until late in the afternoon on Monday. Cell phone records from Sunday night through Monday afternoon show that she remained in the vicinity of the Anthony home. If George called Casey’s cell phone and she didn’t answer, he might have thought she went back to the house for something and tried that number on a whim. To me, it indicates nothing because when he made the call, he wasn’t near the house. He didn’t know whether she was there or not. If he thought she was still there, he would have known Caylee was with her or he would have wondered for sure.

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