New SCOTUS ruling something to think about come Casey time

July 2, 2009 · 201 Comments

The Sixth Amendment guarantees a defendant the right “to be confronted with the witnesses against him.”

- Justice Antonin Scalia

supreme court building

Last Thursday, the Supreme Court decided on something that could potentially change how crime labs are used in trials. In a 5-4 vote, it ruled that a defendant has the right to cross-examine, in front of a jury, the experts who prepared the reports. Justice Antonin Scalia spoke for the majority, saying that technicians who prepared the reports are like witnesses for the prosecution and under the Sixth Amendment, the accused has the right “to be confronted by the witnesses against him.”

The court looked into the case of a Massachusetts man who was found guilty of selling cocaine. Police officers had taken 19 small bags of the drug from a vehicle in which Luis Melendez-Diaz was riding. (There’s that hyphenated name thing again. He must have been a fictional nanny at one time.)

At his trial, the prosecution submitted evidence in the form of a certificate from the state lab that said the bags contained cocaine. So far, so good. But wait! It gets better (in a nod to the late Billy Mays) for the defendant, anyway. Melendez-Diaz objected, and his lawyer said he wanted to challenge that evidence. The objection was overruled and Melendez-Diaz was found guilty.

How does it get better, you may ask? Well, crime labs have done the bulk of the work throughout the years. Of late, a lot of the results have come under the gun, so to speak, due to DNA evidence that has shown at least 240 prisoners were not guilty of the crimes they were sentenced for because of faulty lab work. In many instances, they were convicted based on tests involving hair samples, clothing fibers, blood, ballistics from guns, teeth marks, or any combination of tests not including DNA samples. In the past ten years alone, a lot of criticism has been thrown at crime lab reports. Up until then, that was pretty much the litmus test because, quite often, they were assumed to be very accurate. In Melendez v. Massachusetts, the Supreme Court overturned his conviction by stating the defendant has the right to question those findings.

With this new Supreme Court ruling, it may alter the course of defense in the Casey Anthony trial when it finally comes to fruition, because almost all of the physical evidence against her is circumstantial and based on lab work. Yes, DNA evidence proved that the bones found in those woods near the Anthony home were Caylee’s, but from what the state has released to the public thus far, the rest of the DNA tests have only shown pieces and parts of evidence pointing to a possible murder scenario. Taken together, in other words with other evidence combined, the state paints a rather vivid picture of what transpired in June of last year, and enough evidence should exist to convict her mother of murder. What this new ruling does, though, is offer the defense more of an opportunity to smear that painting by picking each test apart at its roots. Instead of merely relying on a printed piece of paper with test results, the technicians in charge of each test – the person pushing the buttons and looking under a microscope – will be subjected to scrutinization by the defense as it attempts to diffuse those results by inferring they are unreliable and this new Supreme Court ruling says so. If the defense is good at its job and the techie is more of a techno-nerd than an orator, well, do you see what could happen if one of the attorneys gets the upper hand? In any event, don’t blame Baez. That is his job, as well as it is for every defense attorney in the country, and remember, the decision was not rendered for the sake of one person. It took over 240 innocent voices.

Melendez-Diaz v. Massachusetts

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Categories: Human Interest
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201 responses so far ↓

  • Id'claire // July 2, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    Wouldn’t this ruling eventually tighten up evidence as those who perform the tests will know they personally will be scrutinized, thus better preparing themselves and their work to be scrutinized?

    A slick defense lawyer could smear and distort the goodness off of Mother Theresa, but our labs are getting better and better.

  • Ina // July 2, 2009 at 4:37 pm

    They will be hairsplitting for months I suppose?

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    On one hand, it may help the prosecution, but in this particular case, a lot of the tests have already been performed and the results are in. What I foresee are courts clogging up and testimony dragging on and on while legitimate tests are postponed because a technician must appear in court that day. This is a complicated decision in my opinion, especially at a time when budgets are cut. All of these tests and court appearances will have to be paid for by the prosecuting side. This is not a decision that anyone should say is costing us more money because Casey is guilty, blah, blah, blah. This is a ruling that changes trials in the entire country.

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    Hairsplitting? Not if I were on trial. Hair wouldn’t factor in.

  • Beatrice // July 2, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    I would not question the process of the labs, because I
    believe technology acts as perfect as it can, but certainly
    would question personalities who do the processing and
    incorporate or suggest something that is not there, or
    if there, where it came from. Most would be as precise as they could possibly be, but there is always someone who was up too late the night before. Human error.

    Dave may have lost some of his hair just from the wind and just one hair could land on a body somewhere down the street……no doubt about it, Dave’s hair is there proof that he had contact with the body, before after it’s
    demise. Is he guilty of anything?

  • LosAngeles // July 2, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    Lol, Dave, re hair splitting :lol:
    I wish I could finish reading this new post and join in the comments, but I have to finish errands and things.

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 5:32 pm

    I don’t think I ever have to worry about my hair ending up at the scene of a crime, but even so, you’re right, Beatrice, it doesn’t make me guilty of the crime. I can think of several cases where bite marks left on victims were determined to come from a suspect’s mouth, but years after that helped convict him, DNA proved there’s no way the guy did it and today, new DNA matches someone else. There are many times where results are merely “scientific” interpretations. Teeth marks aren’t as precise as fingerprints, but many have sat in prisons because of, precisely, that faulty testimony.

  • Sophie // July 2, 2009 at 6:36 pm

    I think that the lab evidence should be scrutinized, because no one should be on the wrong end of somebodies mistake.

    On the other hand, in the case of Casey Anthony, there’s other evidence besides the laboratory evidence, and I presume gut feelings and reactions of jurors will also factor into the mix.

    The trial has not begun, however once it commences, jurors will be able to observe Casey’s demeanor during the trial, and this will additionally influence their verdict.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 7:01 pm

    Dave~~ This post is rather heavy material for the ordinary layperson. I tried to contact Barry Scheck to get some help but he is trying to get someone off death row.

    I was always under the impression that the defense can question any lab reports that are submitted into evidence by forensics.

    I expect that Linda Baden and Andrea Lyons will have a field day with this new ruling. Cross examining a lowly lab technician will be quite exciting for them. I can hear the response from the witness….uh uh uhm ahuh…

    Did you write this post to punish us?

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    You are correct, Sophie. And there have been mistakes made, even by juries because of evidence that turned out wrong. Of course, it was presented with good intentions, and I contend is that Casey will not be able to come across as a sweet, innocent mother who lost her child, whether she’s put on the stand or not.

  • mikka // July 2, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    detwill,i think the fbi have not an lowly lab technician,and i am sure who say uhm ,it will be the defense!

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 8:07 pm

    Boy, imagine if one day Linda Baden defends bin Laden. I could turn that one into a tongue twister.

    The defense has always had the right to question all lab reports, but the decision has, until last week’s ruling, fallen into the judge’s hands. He could sustain the defense’s request or overrule it, as was the circumstance with Melendez-Diaz. Of course, the list of witnesses will have to be submitted prior to trial, so it won’t be quite the slap in the face that some people might think.

    As for punishing, no, I didn’t do it for that purpose. When I read of the ruling last week, I immediately thought about its implications with regard to the Anthony trial, because it will be under such a public microscope. The defense team had to see it in their favor, but I think it was a good decision by the court, which kind of surprised me because, over the years, they have leaned more toward the legal side (meaning LE and prosecutors) and not John Q. Public.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    Dave~~if all the forensics is picked apart as in the OJ case, and I watched every little second of it, the jury will fall asleep.

    If we have to discuss DNA, let’s use the proper word for it….. deoxyribonucleic

    All I ever wanted to be when I first joined you is a top-notch detective/sleuth.

    If I had been interested in science, I would have joined a monestary and played with some bugs in brine.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 8:20 pm

    mikka~~the defense may surprise us with all those forensic experts.

  • mikka // July 2, 2009 at 8:28 pm

    detwill,i like surprises,of course the defense will try to pick all appart and we must still wait and see what evidence the staate hold, till the trial!

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 8:31 pm

    Dave~~I guess nothing is really ‘off topic’ anymore, it seems, so I have a question for you.
    I dream about this case….

    You mentioned in your comments, somewhere, that George testified at the Grand Jury that he saw Casey and Caylee leave on June 16/08.

    Since, that testimony is under seal, how do you know this for sure?

    I am not trying to trick you, but is this speculation ?

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 8:33 pm

    mikka~~I am sure the prosecution is holding alot of the good stuff back. I would like to know what Tony Lazarro and Casey talked about on her cell phone for that 80 minutes. I’ll betcha LE has that evidence tucked away for future use.

  • mikka // July 2, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    detwill,i think you are right,more to come!

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 8:43 pm

    mikka~~you are doing very good with English now. I remember you well when I used to comment at Humbles. It is nice to see you again.

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 8:47 pm

    I have to dig back for it, detwill39, but I know the consensus was that he told investigators about June 16 before he testified against Casey in the grand jury hearing. No one is arguing about whether he said it or not, it’s all about whether he is lying about the date.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 8:52 pm

    Dave~~I sit on the fence on that one. Was George telling the truth or did Cindy script it for him? I would give anything to see that grand jury evidence but I guess that will never be.
    Is it ever published after the criminal trial?

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 8:57 pm

    Dave~~yes, George did tell LE and FBI, both, that he watched Casey and Caylee leave. That was months before the grand jury took place.

    The thing raising my suspicions is why, did George, just recently say that he made Caylee’s breakfast and helped her in the car and waved goodbye?

    If he was not telling the truth, he must have alot weighing on his mind. The conflict of loyalty to his g/daughter versus his daughter would make anyone attempt to end it all.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 9:01 pm

    The depositions and all the tv appearances have really damaged George and Cindy’s credibility.

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 9:07 pm

    I don’t know what will be released to the public after the trial, but my guess is that if it all comes out at trial anyway, it will be published. I’m sure the prosecutors will want to get in on the action, too.

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 9:14 pm

    I think the key issue here, as far as the law is concerned, is what testimony George gave under oath prior to and including the grand jury. What he tells Oprah or Larry King is not under oath and it’s subject to nothing more than public scrutiny and discernment. Who knows, he’s a 57 year old guy under a lot of duress. Maybe, he really wants to believe he made Caylee her final breakfast. What he said under oath and what he says at trial is what matters. Trust me, I could forgive him for these transgressions over superfluous stuff he tells a TV host. Once he puts his hand on the Bible, then I’ll pay attention. Until then, what real harm could it possibly do?

  • Beatrice // July 2, 2009 at 9:20 pm

    Detwill39, Can you tell us just when stated that he had
    breakfast with Caylee and waved goodbye on the 16th?
    If it is when I think is referred to, I did not hear it that way. Help!

  • Id'claire // July 2, 2009 at 9:21 pm

    Detwill39, you dream of this case? or nightmares?

    I join with others who’ve questioned George’s memory.

    Did George know about the night before? If so, would he just say an OK, Goodbye to Casey rather than say at least something in relation to the fight the night before. (I know it’s easy to just NOT say anything after a fight…give it time to blow away)

    Or, wouldn’t George notice something on Casey’s face to show how upset she was…although, perhaps she was regularly irritable, or she was putting up a front with Caylee in tow.

    These things he didn’t mention. It was like a regular day, a regular good bye, except for the vacation/bonding thing.

  • Id'claire // July 2, 2009 at 9:23 pm

    With computer usage that day, could George have had breakfast with Caylee…altho that may not have taken long.

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 9:35 pm

    Sometimes, the line of questioning can lead one to answer a certain way. For instance, if LE asked him specifically about when he last saw Caylee aliveand on what date. Where were you, George? Now, had LE asked him what time he got up that morning, what did he have for breakfast, he might have given a different answer.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 9:36 pm

    Beatrice~~let us hear what you heard re George making Caylee’s breakfast. Maybe it will help me refresh my memory as to where I heard it.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 9:45 pm

    It is much easier for the prosecution to get a murder conviction if they can come up with a motive. In this case, they need to connect the ‘fight’ with the time Casey left with Caylee.
    This could give a motive of ‘revenge’ or ‘pay back’….

    I truly think the cell phone calls with Tony will play a big part in exactly where Casey was on the nite of June 15th. What was Casey talking to him about for 80 minutes? Phone sex wouldn’t take that long. We know Casey was in the vicinity of her home but was she in her bed or down the street?

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 9:50 pm

    Dave~~ I speculated on what may have happened on the evening of June 15th. I went to another blog and read an identical take by the blogger. He added a few more things tho, and I don’t resort to name calling of the Anthonys. Interesting??

  • Beatrice // July 2, 2009 at 10:05 pm

    OK, no problem, It was an interview, could have been
    Larry King, not sure. George was responding to questions more than previous interviews. At one time he spoke and in answering he kind of mumbled his remark that he missed Caylee, “to never have breakfast with her again, or say goodbye” in which I heard his pain in never being able to see her again. not in that remark did I hear that he was referring to the morning of the 16th. as having breakfast with her and etc. Do not hold me tight Detwill, I just remember at the time thinking this could have been heard differently by others.

  • Beatrice // July 2, 2009 at 10:07 pm

    Detwill39 I really liked the time line you gave, where
    can I get TL’s accounting of the 15th and those phone calls
    from Casey. Thanks

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 10:13 pm

    I know who that blogger is and he was basing it all on his gut feelings, like he knows because he’s older and wiser and he lives in Florida. He even questioned his own memory, but because he is who he is and who he believes is better than me and everyone else, he must be right. I’m not going to agree with him because he feels he is one step below God. You can say the 15th and I will say the 16th, but right now, I have LE on my side.

    As for motive, she wanted her daughter dead because she wanted to punish her parents and she wanted to live a life free from parental responsibilities. She wanted a man who didn’t want a child. The fact that she will not acknowledge her parents in the courtroom shows me that her motive was hate and hate doesn’t need a date. She was motivated to kill her daughter long before the 15th or 16th and that is the basis of the prosecution’s case. Why would they care about search terms on the computer if the motive was merely anger on one night she snapped? Why would the death penalty figure in so prominently on a spur of the moment irrational act? My biggest question to date for those who are adamant about the 15th and a rumored fight that evening is why are the prosecutors focusing on the 16th and not the 15th? Wouldn’t the 15th be a much easier way to explain the motive? I’m sorry, but there is no absolute proof that a fight ever occurred and LE has focused on the 16th. When the state changes the date to the 15th, I’ll suck gas out of a mule’s rear end.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 10:17 pm

    Beatrice~~I will try and find that re George and the breakfast. I think it was on ABC. I also could be wrong.

    If TL told LE what he and Casey talked about on June 15/16th, it has not been released yet. I did post a comment on Dave’s last post (yesterday) showing the times and all her cell calls on the 15th of June.

  • Beatrice // July 2, 2009 at 10:23 pm

    I do not find any proof that Casey even had Caylee on the
    15th. at all. Only the neighbors stated that they saw Casey
    leave but can not recall that they saw that she had Caylee.
    To remember it at all seems that a child is big enough to
    visually remember. I do have speculation as to why
    Cindy and Caylee may have had words on the 15th but
    again was Caylee with her….. if she left that evening???

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 10:25 pm

    Dave~~better out of the mules ear than its butt. Where do you come up with all these strange sayings?

    Look, I don’t know whether it was 15th, 16th or 17th….I look at all angles.

    If that blogger would like to copy my comments here you go…. ” I am not what I seem and lack mental stability so I make things up. ” Now write that in your post sir!!

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 10:25 pm

    This other blogger also said that it’s been well documented that they had a big blow up fight the night of the 15th. I’d like to see all of that “well documented” information other than what came out of Daisy Chain’s mouth. I’d be happy to see any of it.

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 10:27 pm

    There is no proof she left the night of the 15th. Zero. Zilch. I don’t care if others want to believe she left on the 15th, but until the state changes its tune, I’m sticking with the 16th.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 10:29 pm

    Dave~~the fight was second hand info….Lee supposedly told Jesse and Padilla. I think Cindy’s brother heard it from their mother. I don’t think George was ever told about it. The neighbor heard it…

    I tend to believe there was a fight but have no black and white evidence.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 10:31 pm

    Dave~~have I told you lately that I love you?

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 10:32 pm

    I don’t mind anymore if you think it was the 15th, detwill39. I just don’t believe it because I have not seen one piece of credible information from the state offering the 15th as the last day Caylee was seen alive. Not one bit of official documentation anywhere states that there was a fight and Casey stormed out of that house dragging Caylee with her.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 10:33 pm

    Dave~~I’ll bet you are laughing at me. You seem to have me over a barrel and I don’t dare argue with you. I want your clock to go tick tock not tick tick tick tick thump!

  • LosAngeles // July 2, 2009 at 10:34 pm

    Oh, Detwill, you know what you would love?
    The Hardy Boys books or Nancy Drew.

    Yeah, it’s nice when someone else has the same take as you on something.

    I agree, Dave, that whether the 15th or the 16th is not all that important in the overall evidence package.

  • LosAngeles // July 2, 2009 at 10:37 pm

    Oh, sorry, Detwill. To bring it up to our age and the fact that we’re adults more, I think you’d like books about true crime cases. I was thinking too young.

  • LosAngeles // July 2, 2009 at 10:39 pm

    I turned away for two seconds and there’s, like,
    20 new comments. Oye.

  • LosAngeles // July 2, 2009 at 10:42 pm

    Beatrice, the neighbor who testified to the fight testified that he did not remember what the date was. His name is Jean Couty.

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 10:42 pm

    My main rationale for it is because the state is not offering a sudden fight as the motive. States don’t execute people for crimes of passion. This was a well thought out (to Casey, anyway) plan to rid herself of the burden of her daughter while denying her parents true happiness. For a long time, Casey felt as if her parents didn’t love her anymore. All they cared about was Caylee. They spoiled her to death and it just crawled under Casey’s skin that they lavished her daughter with all that attention; attention she felt she never got from them as a child growing up. This little girl would have been dead anyway. The date of death was never that much of an issue to the state. The murder itself was and is, and the motive was revenge that festered soon after Caylee was born.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 10:45 pm

    LA~~I couldn’t handle a Hardy boy but would settle for a Hardy old man. He would have to be important and impotent and not be able to afford viagra. Maybe someone like Dave….

    Now I am banned for sure…

  • LosAngeles // July 2, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    I forgot to add that Jean Couty testified to two fights but he couldn’t even narrow it down to a specific week.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    Dave~~ I totally agree with every word you said. Now sweetheart, will you get your teddy and go to bed……so I can tell these nice people the REAL truth…. off you go….scoot…

  • LosAngeles // July 2, 2009 at 10:49 pm

    I would still like to know if it’s true that Cindy would absolutely not allow Casey to give up baby for adoption when she was pregnant. I would sure like to know that. But I don’t think anyone will ever know because there’s no way to find out.

  • Marinade Dave // July 2, 2009 at 10:51 pm

    I’m not impotent, unless you heard it from The Man Who is One Step Below God. Maybe, he had another gut feeling.

    It’s interesting that people are so selective with regard to things. George says one thing and you accuse him of getting his dates confused or that he’s just downright lying for whatever excuse works that day. Then, along comes a neighbor who says she heard an argument, of which there were many, and this woman can’t even pinpoint a date. Therefore, it must have been the 15th.

    wow.

  • LosAngeles // July 2, 2009 at 10:53 pm

    So let me get this straight, Detwill. You’re looking for an old man who is impotent and in poverty.
    Have you considered talking to a therapist?

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 10:55 pm

    LA~~would you like to live in the same household with Cindy, if you went against her wishes? We don’t have Cindy’s recorded words saying, “Casey, no adoption!” but , if you think about it, Cindy wanted that baby. She would have Casey opt for abortion before she would allow anyone else to raise that child thru and adoption.

  • LosAngeles // July 2, 2009 at 10:57 pm

    Jean Couty is a man. You haven’t listened to his interview on audio tape?
    If the name or spelling of J-e-a-n is throwing you off, it’s a French name, pronounced “shzon” as in
    the actor, Jean Claude Van Damm.

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 10:59 pm

    LA~~my therapist is a replica of that old man. Dave is my personal therapist. Why do you think I hang around this place?

  • LosAngeles // July 2, 2009 at 11:27 pm

    Detwill, are you saying that the man you’re looking for is Dave?

  • Beatrice // July 2, 2009 at 11:28 pm

    Back to Detwill39 timeline on other post. I notice that
    Casey left house on 15th at 9am, Cindy then left WITH
    CAYLEE at 9:12 am. Casey came back home at 7:26.

    Cindy had tried to call Casey. Now I am only “thinking” that IF there were any words between them on the 15th that Cindy was perturbed that Casey was gone all day, Cindy had Caylee and the fact that Casey had not bothered to go see the grandparent at ? hurt Cindy’s feelings so when Casey got home that early evening, Cindy could have been upset .. but I do not think it was
    a knock down fight… who said choking?? nowhere can I determine by any phone calls that Casey left the house with Caylee late that evening on the 15th. No doubt
    Caylee was in bed asleep before Casey would have left anyway on the 15th. That’s why I want to review what
    TL had to say about that evening…. did he see Casey
    on the late 15th???

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 11:30 pm

    Beatrice~~ Your 10.05pm comments

    Here is the CBS Morning Show video….you have to scroll down the page to find it…

    George says, “woke up around 7:30, had breakfast with her…”

    http://www.daylife.com/topic/Cindy_Anthony/videos

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 11:35 pm

    Beatrice~~~sry it was CBS Early Show not morning show… It is about the 4th or 5th video down the page that I linked to…

  • Detwill39 // July 2, 2009 at 11:43 pm

    Beatrice~~When Cindy went to visit her father at the nursing home with Caylee on June 15th, she also visited her mother, Shirley Pleasea. Shirley told Cindy that Casey had stolen money out of their account. Casey had took the router # off a check and forged a check to herself. It was around $200-$300, not sure of the exact amount. Now when Cindy got home, do you think that she would have been pleased with Casey? Casey had every opportunity to leave with Caylee on the evening of June 15th. We don’t need a phone call to substaniate that.

  • Beatrice // July 3, 2009 at 12:04 am

    YES!!! Thank you Detwill39…. CBS interview dated
    6/16 is the one I was thinking of… I wish I could slow it
    down a bit…. I am hearing George saying “woke up
    around 7:30 the morning of 16th… had breakfast with her” Then something to the effect of ” around 1pm never thinking I would never have a chance to say goodby again.” (Supposedly Casey and Caylee leaving)…. In the past it was more like he did not see them at all until
    later just as they were leaving, right? But still it was on the 16th… Thanks again…. Suggest others check out
    this Utube video also….for comment as to what you hear. Do you think anything has been cut, because when I listen to these videos they sound choppy…. Maybe all
    Utube sounds so.

  • Coreysmom // July 3, 2009 at 12:06 am

    Beatrice // July 2, 2009 at 10:05 pm

    OK, no problem, It was an interview, could have been
    Larry King, not sure. George was responding to questions more than previous interviews. At one time he spoke and in answering he kind of mumbled his remark that he missed Caylee, “to never have breakfast with her again, or say goodbye” in which I heard his pain in never being able to see her again. not in that remark did I hear that he was referring to the morning of the 16th. as having breakfast with her and etc. Do not hold me tight Detwill, I just remember at the time thinking this could have been heard differently by others.
    —————————-
    It was on Larry King. And what you have said, Beatrice, is how I took what George said.

    Mark Furman reported about the fight on the night of the 15th on Greta’s show, On The Record, and that was long before LP said it on Nancy Grace. I believe I also read in an LE interview that Jesse said this, too, that Lee had told him about it. It may be in an email that Shirley Plesea sent to her sister, also.
    Thing is, if Casey did leave after the fight, did she take Caylee with her? If she did then I believe Caylee was murdered by Casey on the 16th-the wee hours of!

    Little note to Detwill39: Viagra is free to those men in poverty in these here parts of the country…important or not…
    Have you heard about the not too bright man who went to see his doctor about his “problem”? He came home smiling at his wife with head in the air and she asked how it went at the doctor’s thinking it had to be good news. He said, “Yes, it is very good news! The doctor said I was im-po-tent. So you better treat me well, cuz I’m a very im-po-tent person!

  • Detwill39 // July 3, 2009 at 12:08 am

    Beatrice~~when I watched it, the audio was fine and the words very plain.

  • Beatrice // July 3, 2009 at 12:09 am

    You are right about phone calls to substantiate her leaving.
    There were phone calls throughout the evening to TL.
    Could have been from inside home or outside… I am just
    looking for what “TL” had to say about her on that evening.
    I’ll find it, I’m just slow at doing it.

  • Beatrice // July 3, 2009 at 12:11 am

    PS I forgot about mom’s check!! Of course Cindy would
    be angry about that. Probably Cindy got a good going
    over by her mom too.

  • Detwill39 // July 3, 2009 at 12:19 am

    Beatrice~~we don’t have any evidence released where Tony discusses the night of the 15th. I really think LE are holding that information back. I listened to the interview that LE had with Shirley, Cindy’s mother. She sounded very co-operative and, even tho she is getting on in years, her mind seemed to be right on.

  • Beatrice // July 3, 2009 at 12:32 am

    Just one more little thing Det, If another interview
    comes about I would like to have them ask George
    “When did you “first” see Caylee on June 16th”, because
    of the breakfast, which to the best of my knowledge it
    was stated that Casey and Caylee were in her room until
    leaving, or something like that. Oh well,, still the 16th.
    Thanks about TL I have been searching away on that.
    Yes Cindy’s mom appeared quite clear in her mind.
    Giving you rest… I am going off now. Thanks again!

  • LosAngeles // July 3, 2009 at 1:01 am

    Yeah, Beatrice, George, in the past, it was more like he did not see them at all until later, just as they were leaving.

  • LosAngeles // July 3, 2009 at 1:09 am

    Beatrice, a big question has always been: Would George really remember the top Caylee was wearing, the color of it, the bottoms she was wearing, the color of them, whether she had a backpack, and the cartoon type or character type of backpack that it was, whether her hair was in a ponytail or not?

  • Newbie // July 3, 2009 at 1:10 am

    LA…somewhere along the line I had the idea Casey and Caylee were in a bedroom all morning long per what George had said. The only reason I remember this is I wondered at the time how would you keep a child that age in a bedroom all morning.

  • LosAngeles // July 3, 2009 at 1:14 am

    That’s a good question, Newbie.

  • LosAngeles // July 3, 2009 at 1:18 am

    Another thing, and I don’t know if I’m remembering this right, but on another blog some of the commenters pointed out that there are phone records showing that Cindy called Casey’s cell phone sometime between 7:30 am and 8:30 am on the morning of June 16, 2008, and that why would Cindy be calling Casey if she knew that Casey was at home.

  • Beatrice // July 3, 2009 at 1:21 am

    LA, Ordinarily not likely such detail, if at that time he
    had no idea that he would not see her again, unless in
    his heart he was afraid that would be the case… Sometimes there are senses that come into action and are not recognized until later. Meaning his subsconscience could have absorbed the whole picture without the impact of meaning. I think George was quite conscious of Caylee because of Casey’s need to
    do her own thing His heart ached for Caylee.

  • Newbie // July 3, 2009 at 1:21 am

    I guess the puzzle just can’t be completed since there are too many missing pieces. But, in this case, I do believe someone mixed a couple of puzzles together…..then stole pieces from them. First puzzle….Casey. Added puzzle, George and Cindy.

  • LosAngeles // July 3, 2009 at 1:24 am

    That’s food for thought.

  • Newbie // July 3, 2009 at 1:29 am

    I should apologize. You all are talking about one specific happening, i.e., the night of the 15th vs. the day of the 16th and what has been said. This whole thing for me starts at the time the car was driven off the tow yard and Casey’s slacks were washed. There is not a whole lot after that which makes sense to me.

  • Newbie // July 3, 2009 at 1:40 am

    I will look forward to reading your comments tomorrow. Curious thought on the phone call LA.
    Good night ladies.

  • frosty // July 3, 2009 at 4:16 am

    Detwill, I agree with you that we should use the proper name of DNA when we speak of it. You are only talking about DN when you use the word deoxyribonucleic.

    To talk about DNA the word you must use is Deoxyribonucleic acid.

    I’m sorry, but the RN in me could not let that go!!

  • Kari // July 3, 2009 at 5:27 am

    As I’ve mentioned before, I just have a sort of hunch that George’s account of seeing Casey and Caylee leaving on the 16th is not entirely truthful. But I would more ascribe it to, say, the power of suggestion, than a deliberate cover up. What with people asking him, did you see her? And George wanting to believe he saw her–could be like those cases of ‘recovered memory’, where the person becomes convinced that they are ‘remembering’ something and it’s all just a sort of auto-hypnosis. That would account for his adding details to the ‘memory’.

    But as far as when Caylee died, I really don’t see that it makes a bit of difference. No one is suggesting that George killed her.

  • mikka // July 3, 2009 at 9:32 am

    lees lawyer was arrestet in september!

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/orl-bk-attorney-sues-orlando-cop-070209,0,2248982.story

  • Detwill39 // July 3, 2009 at 9:40 am

    mikka~~that happened in 2006. John in Florida is really going back in time to dig up the dirt on him. Does this charge make him a bad lawyer and what does it have to do with him representing Lee today in 2009?

  • Detwill39 // July 3, 2009 at 9:41 am

    Frostie~~I used the long word for the DNA to tease Dave. Thanks for explaining it tho. LOL

  • Marinade Dave // July 3, 2009 at 9:48 am

    I was busted on a marijuana possession charge in 1973, but the charges were dismissed. I live near the Anthony family. Does anyone want to write a stupid story about me and Lee?

    Boy, that was about the longest stretch I’ve ever seen.

  • Id'claire // July 3, 2009 at 12:46 pm

    Casey had had an abortion previous to Caylee.

    Parents who validate an abortion, often suffer in guilt and will later do anything to promote the life of the next grandchild.

    I’ve known of many cases of this.

    How’s this for off topic??

  • Marinade Dave // July 3, 2009 at 12:56 pm

    The only thing is, Id’claire, is that there is no proof Casey ever had an abortion. She said she did but her friends didn’t believe her.

  • Detwill39 // July 3, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    I remember Casey said she got pregnant and had a miscarriage. Alot of her friends did not believe her. The father was supposedly Brandon Snow. I do not recall reading anything about Casey having any abortion before she got preg with Caylee. I am sure that is just a rumor.

  • LosAngeles // July 3, 2009 at 2:55 pm

    Newbie, is it possible that you’re confusing June 15th and 16th 2008 with July 15th and 16th 2008?

    Thank you, Frosty. I was going to say that to her, but then I thought it might have just been a typo.

    Hi, Mikka!
    Quoted from the article that you just linked in your July 3, 9:32 am comment, “but prosecutors a month later dropped the charges.” So what’s your point?

  • Marinade Dave // July 3, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    I don’t understand what an arrest in 2006 has to do with Lee. Is that lawyer supposed to give up his practice in the name of justice for Caylee? Clearly, blogs that are writing about this are as biased as they come. What about John Morgan? Why not be fair? No, of course not, but if I wrote an expose on him, those a**wipes would call me an Anthony lover. I can’t stand the hypocrisy of it.

  • Detwill39 // July 3, 2009 at 3:48 pm

    LA~~Mikka just posted that link because she felt it was something new. She probably did not read all of it.

  • LosAngeles // July 3, 2009 at 4:11 pm

    Since the charges were dropped, I’m wondering if it was one of those incidents where
    the cop tries to arrest and harass a little bit someone walking out of a bar, which I’ve seen a lot in the news, whereby then the arrestee pulls his hand away and says “wait a minute”, and then the cop gets mad and charges the arrestee with resisting arrest and battery or assualt, which battery or assault on a police officer is a very, very serious charge but it wasn’t really a battery or assault, just the guy pulling his arm away, which is called resisting arrest without violence. I’ve even seen it happen sometimes on the show called “Cops”, if it was filmed in some small southern town, if you know what I mean.

  • Marinade Dave // July 3, 2009 at 4:20 pm

    The incident happened in 2006, two full years before any of the Anthonys were in the news. Anyone who chooses to bring up something as unrelated to the family as that should have their brain examined. It has absolutely nothing to do with the case and some A-holes are trying to dig up stuff for lack of anything else to report.

    I refuse to scrape the bottom of the barrel as some of the scum bloggers have chosen to do. Idiots are assuming there’s a money trail involved somehow. People are stupid.

  • LosAngeles // July 3, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    No argument there, Dave.

  • LosAngeles // July 3, 2009 at 8:37 pm

    I’m anxious to see how the SCOTUS ruling is going to affect court cases. If the Casey trial is televised, we might be able to see how firsthand.

  • LosAngeles // July 3, 2009 at 8:44 pm

    A lot of somebodies messed up if there were 241 innocent ones convicted.
    And that’s not even including all the ones who were found innocent by the Innocence Project by way of DNA.
    And a lot of times, they never fire these people who are responsible for locking up an innocent person. It’s just like “Oops. Oh, well.”

  • Marinade Dave // July 3, 2009 at 9:05 pm

    I don’t know if the trial will be televised or not, but I can’t think of any murder trials that have had complete TV coverage in Orlando. Not one, but this will be a HUGE trial.

  • laura // July 3, 2009 at 9:08 pm

    Hi everyone! I miss you all, my youngest daughter had to have her appendix taken out. It ruptured…. I am at the hospital with her we have been here since yesterday afternoon. I am all my blackberry sneaking a message to you all. No cell phones allowed. I will check back tomorrow, Happy Fourth of July to you and your families. By the way she is fine now, sore and grossed out because her stomach has to close up on it’s own, no stitches. I am exhausted surgery in the middle of the night and crying most of the morning. Thank God she is a sleep for now. I will talk to you later, Dave I will call when I can.

  • Marinade Dave // July 3, 2009 at 9:08 pm

    I guess it would be tough to fire anyone because their intentions were good. Same thing with a police officer who arrests someone for driving under the influence only to find out later the person was clean as a whistle. They are trained, but there still is that risk of human error and those odds are built into the system.

  • Marinade Dave // July 3, 2009 at 9:16 pm

    I was wondering if something happened, Laura. I’m glad she is OK. Check back when you can. We can wait. Everything is fine now and your daughter will be back on her feet before you know it, but it must have given you an incredible scare. Call me when things are settled.

  • Detwill39 // July 3, 2009 at 9:29 pm

    Laura~~thank God that your daughter is okay. Here is a big HUG for you and a speedy recovery for your daughter.

  • Kari // July 3, 2009 at 10:10 pm

    Thank goodness for modern hospitals and antibiotics! What a big adventure for your daughter and you, Laura.

  • LosAngeles // July 4, 2009 at 2:14 am

    I’m so sorry to hear that, Laura. I’m so glad she’s okay now.What do you mean “no stitches” and healing on its own? Please get a second opinion on that. I can imagine how exhausted you must be. Remember, she has one thing on her side, youth. Young people heal up much better and quicker. Thank you for dropping in.

  • Beatrice // July 4, 2009 at 2:36 am

    Never know what a day holds. So happy your daughter
    and you are doing well. Scary for you to say the least.

  • LosAngeles // July 4, 2009 at 2:37 am

    True about human error, Dave.

  • LosAngeles // July 4, 2009 at 2:39 am

    You have a nice blog here, Dave.

  • Ina // July 4, 2009 at 5:30 am

    Laura, if you have time to read this blog, best wishes for your daughter, and good recovery. This must have been very scary especially for you, good luck!

  • mikka // July 4, 2009 at 11:16 am

    happy 4th july for you all here!!

  • Marinade Dave // July 4, 2009 at 11:25 am

    Thank you, LosAngeles. It’s everyone that makes this a nice blog.

  • Marinade Dave // July 4, 2009 at 11:28 am

    Thank you, mikka, and I hope you enjoy your day, too!

  • LosAngeles // July 4, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    Happy Holiday to you too, Mikka!

  • Newbie // July 4, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    Happy holiday to all.

  • Marinade Dave // July 4, 2009 at 2:07 pm

    Thank you, Newbie, same to you. Don’t eat too many hot dogs.

  • laura // July 4, 2009 at 7:00 pm

    When her appendix ruptures it gets infection into the blood stream that is why there is no stitches. They pack it and change it, when she comes home I will pack and change it. I still have not read this post, I will hopefully tomorrow. If her fever is gone we may get to come home. I hope you all enjoy your day and the fireworks. We are on the wrong side of the hospital so we will not see them. I will check back when I can. I miss talking to you all. .)

  • detwill39 // July 4, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    Laura~~hang in there kiddo. I, for one, really miss you. I know of several folks who had surgery and it had to heal from the inside out with no stitches. It takes a bit longer for the wound to completely heal but they do that so no infection will be trapped on the inside if they stitched it. Take good care and we hope to see you on a regular basis soon.

  • Marinade Dave // July 4, 2009 at 7:33 pm

    I’m writing at the moment. I am once again tackling the 15th and 16th of June, but I am not focusing on our differences of opinion, detwill39, so I want to alert you that it’s not about us at all.

  • detwill39 // July 4, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    Dave~~go ahead and write what you want. We are both adults and are allowed to have differences of opinions on what took place on those dates. I hope I can freely voice my opinions as to what I really think took place. If they go against your take on it, it doesn’t mean that I am definitely right and you are definitely wrong or vice versa. We are just making educated guesses as to how we interpret the evidence.

  • Marinade Dave // July 4, 2009 at 8:45 pm

    And that’s what I’m writing. Either way. All I’m trying to do is fill in some details.

  • LosAngeles // July 4, 2009 at 9:44 pm

    Thank you for the update, Laura, and thanks to everyone about the explanation of why no stitches.
    I hope your little angel feels better. I know that she appreciates seeing you by her side when she wakes up from time to time.

  • Id'claire // July 4, 2009 at 9:48 pm

    What if….she is in the process of murder on the 15th and the death is complete early 16th?

    That would still leave George’s account as false.

    And that would mean she was talking to TL when it happened.

  • LosAngeles // July 4, 2009 at 9:54 pm

    I know there are those who feel that Casey left with Caylee on the night of June 15th, and then came back to the Anthony home on the afternoon of June 16th after everyone else had left and then killed Caylee.

    I think that’s also feasible.

  • detwill39 // July 4, 2009 at 11:11 pm

    The day Caylee was murdered can be solved by doing a little mathmatics.

    Casey told Lee on July 15th, per Lee’s interview with LE-pg 11 “Lee, you want the truth. I haven’t seen Caylee in thirty-one days.”

    June 15th…Casey sees Caylee alive for the last time. If we include June 15th and count forward….

    June 15th to July 15 16days +15 days=31 days

  • Beatrice // July 4, 2009 at 11:15 pm

    Eeeeeek, you may just have something here Detwill39
    Can that be brought into trial. Oops, I take it back there are only 30 days in June. Gotcha! Noooo, I just counted
    again. Someone else better do this, I got excited and
    can’t don’t know what I am doing right now.

  • Beatrice // July 4, 2009 at 11:19 pm

    Well No, because you wouldn’t count the 15th. So I was
    right after all. She still saw her on the 15th!!!

  • detwill39 // July 4, 2009 at 11:46 pm

    Beatrice~~if Casey counted June 15th, and we have to remember that, she was probably no mathematical genius, you will get 31 days. If she killed Caylee on the 16th, it would have been 30 or 29 (if you didn’t count the 16th) so my theory is closer.

  • detwill39 // July 4, 2009 at 11:49 pm

    LE figured it out to the 15th… Read line..21 here

    http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0923/17540065.pdf

  • detwill39 // July 4, 2009 at 11:53 pm

    Caylee was killed between 11:00pm and 11:44pm on June 15th.

  • Beatrice // July 4, 2009 at 11:58 pm

    Geez, I know, I am still messed up :-) Sorry, I quit!
    OK Dave, what say about this one.. One of you two gotta
    be right!

  • LosAngeles // July 4, 2009 at 11:59 pm

    The police be knowing thangs, big thangs.
    That’s for darn sure. That’s what my opinion is.
    In part, because of the reinstatement of the death penalty.

  • Sheron // July 5, 2009 at 3:46 am

    Absolutely without a doubt used to believe George about the 16th.

    Not anymore. He has proven to be a liar.

    Detwill probably has the time line down pretty accurate. Which means my whole scenario with the pool is wrong.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 7:13 am

    Beatrice – You decide. I am going to stick with the date we have been given by LE until they change it.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 7:24 am

    Sheron – You believe what you want. This would mean that LE has been wrong all along.

  • Id'claire // July 5, 2009 at 9:03 am

    LE would only be a little off.

    I find it amazing that Casey tattled on herself in regard to days. Perhaps the closest she’ll come to a confession.

    I am not a stickler for days. I would never be able to keep track like that (X number of days) especially backwards. Was she keeping track in case she needed a story? Did it haunt her? Perhaps with being a diary girl had a thing for numbers. She could have said 12 days, for all anyone knew. I guess that details don’t allude her.

    So it would come down to Casey lying about days or George lying about his last goodbye, or they both being a little off.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 9:40 am

    So, Id’claire, you believe LE is wrong about the 16th?

  • Id'claire // July 5, 2009 at 10:21 am

    I’ll get back with you, Dave, after I talk to TL about that long phone call with girlfriend Casey.

    LE is putting things together as best they can…doing a great job…better than me….
    They have to make a call…

    But Detwill makes some very good points.

    There’s some missing pieces here, that’s for sure. Makes for some suspense, excellent sleuthing, and a little rivalry between friends.

  • Id'claire // July 5, 2009 at 10:22 am

    I would never disagree with you, Dave, or Detwill….

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 10:49 am

    A little rivalry never hurts anyone. I am more open today than I was before about both dates, although I am not as set in stone about my date of the 16th as she is about the 15th. What we have to consider is that LE has more facts than any armchair sleuth and I question why they haven’t come right out and declared the 15th as the official date of death. You know why? Because there is absolutely not one ounce of proof that Casey took Caylee out of that house on the night of the 15th.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 11:37 am

    Re the Argument when Cindy took Casey by the throat on June 15th.

    Cindy was backtracking on things she previously told LE. The inteview with Cindy’s mother took place when Padilla had Casey out on bond. This was before Padilla went on Nancy Grace and talked about the fight. Yuri is trying to find out more about the argument here…

    Read line 13-page 8 of Yuri Melich’s interview with Shirley Plesea, Cindy’s mother.

    http://www.wftv.com/pdf/18974289/detail.html

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Line 13 on page 8 is Yuri Melich speaking. What are you trying to tell me?

    What you are stating as fact is that because Shirley Plesea acknowledges an argument, it is absolute proof that Casey tore out of the house with Caylee on the night of the 15th and murdered her that night.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 11:56 am

    I would suggest that you read all of Shirley’s interview with LE. It may seem a little cofusing in parts because a storm had just knocked Shirley lights out and she couldn’t find her cat. Shirley brings up some really good points about Cindy’s relationship with Casey and all the money issues.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 11:58 am

    What you are stating as fact is that because Shirley Plesea acknowledges an argument, it is absolute proof that Casey tore out of the house with Caylee on the night of the 15th and murdered her that night.

    How does LE stand on these facts of yours? How wrong they are to say the 16th. How dare they question the facts. OK, if an argument did, in fact, occur, why is LE saying the 16th? If you can explain that, I will believe you. Until then, I will go with LE’s statement. They happen to know a few things.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 11:58 am

    How did Yuri know about the argument to begin with? I have some things to take care of but I promise to get back as soon as I can..

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    I am not going to spar with you when I get back….I am going to show you facts.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    By all means. Prove LE wrong.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    And logic…..bbl

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    If you are inferring that my take on this, including LE, is illogical, you are not going to win the argument.

    If you consider me a friend, we will hash this out, but not fight like the last time we got into this. I did just about everything to prove to you why LE believes it was the 16th and you still completely deny it. You absolutely insist it was the 15th to this day. I want your absolute proof this time, not snippets of interviews that are open to interpretation.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 12:16 pm

    Well then, other than George saying he saw Casey and Caylee leave at exactly 12:40pm on June 16th….I demand your absolute proof that LE states that George was being truthful. If we are to hash it out as friends, it will not be one-sided because this is your blog.

    If at any time, what I say upsets you, I will back off…until then…

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    Shirley’s interview, page 28, line 5:
    YM: The day they went missing what did Cindy tell you happened the day before, or that morning, that made them leave? What was the argument about?
    SP: I have no idea. I didn’t even know they had an argument. And I know on Father’s Day she’d come down here…

    Page 32 Shirley says they left on the 15th or 16th.

    Page 36, line 9-11:
    SP: When she had her away all month, why would it happen if she was home on the 15th, home on the 16th, until she left that day.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    I knew you would do that. It’s not upsetting me. I just am asking for proof. I am trying to load up on info that supports my claim, along with LE, of the 16th. Why not do the same thing about the 15th?

  • Id'claire // July 5, 2009 at 1:12 pm

    YM is basing his questioning of SP on what George told him about the 16th “that made them leave.”

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    Dave~~now I want you to show me the absolute proof that LE believes George is telling the truth. They did not have an audio or video camera pointing towards George when he sat on the chesterfield watching his cooking show. LE asked George questions, he answered and it is on audio, he raised his right hand and swore it was the truth. Can you furnish me with your facts please that will not go beyond a reasonable doubt?

    You referred to me as an armchair sleuth. Well I am a sleuth and a damn fine one at that. May I call you a stubborn old goat?

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 1:50 pm

    I did not call you an armchair sleuth. I called all of us that and that’s all we are. I have a new post I’m just about finished with. In it, you will understand how fair I am about both dates in question. You may call me a stubborn old goat, but come on now, when was the last time you ever conceded that the 16th was a possibility? You are incredulous with your absolute, set in stone date of the 15th. At least I am saying both days are possibilities now. You are stating it is only the 15th. Because you insist on that date and have called me illogical, all I’m asking for is proof. I want something solid that says she left in a huff on the 15th. At least, I’ve got a sworn statement from George, whether you want to call him a liar or not. LE has not called him a liar. That will be entered into testimony. What will be entered for the 15th?

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    Logic~~After just over a month, George can recall exactly what Casey and Caylee were wearing when they left the house on June 16th. Granted, he was a homicide detective and trained to remember details. It had been over 20 years since George was a detective. Logic tells me that George could not recall, with accuracy, what Caylee and Caylee were wearing. He even knew the exact time of 12:40pm. His recollection was too detailed and tells me it was scripted. George did not mention that he made Caylee breakfast but, approx 3 weeks ago, he mentioned it on the morning show. This should have remembered his last breakfast with his granddaughter.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 2:00 pm

    I’m not arguing about George. What you think of him is your business and that sort of an angle won’t work with me. If LE has not discredited him yet, you can do it all you want. I am asking you for evidence that Casey left on the night of the 15th with Caylee in tow. Anything. You are making these claims and I am asking for some kind of interview, anything that says she left the house on the 15th.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 2:05 pm

    I’m not looking for any problems at all and I’m not doing this for the sake of argument. I have done my best to show why the logical date is the 16th and I’ve written extensively on it. Today, you accuse me of being illogical. That means everything I’ve written to date about it is rubbish. I want to know why you will not bend on the date. It makes me look like a fool and I know that’s not what you are trying to do.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 2:31 pm

    If you don’t believe me and all the investigating I have done so are, you are accusing me of being illogical. It make me look like and uninformed idiot who makes thing up. I want you to bend a little in my direction and see that what I am saying can be true.

    The only way that I can give you proof of that argument is to come to Florida and take Cindy by the throat and make her fess up. The big fight is not described in any document and what little there is, is all hearsay.

    I think one of your other commenters is looking for your attention at a couple of your other sites . I will take a little break and we can continue.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 2:34 pm

    My comments are not showing and someone else is trying to divert your attention…bbl

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    No, I’m through with that one, detwill39. Blah, blah, blah.

    I am willing to bend. Absolutely I am. All I’m saying is that we are in different directions here. I didn’t accuse you of being illogical, you did that to me. And I can turn right around and say the same exact thing back to you about all of the investigating I have done, too. You think I write these articles from no where?

    What we have here is one point out of thousands where we don’t see eye to eye. One out of a thousand is not bad. However, because you are so adamant about the 15th, all I am asking for is some evidence that backs your theory. That is all. You bring up all of this investigative work you’ve done, like I haven’t? I ask you for something logical to back yourself up and you get angry with me. Why? Why not just give me something to look at? Obviously, with all of that investigating, you must have something of substance.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 3:12 pm

    Dave~~I am not angry with you. I have no intentions of getting angry with you this time because I am here to defend my theory on what happened and I do not intend to hold back.

    You know full well that I cannot give you concrete evidence of that ‘fight’ without Cindy finally telling the truth. I have yet to see your proof that LE believes George 100% so I am waiting for you to produce it.

    In the meantime, listen to this interview with George. I believe this is the one where he had to go to the restroom and throw up. Now is this a man who was telling the truth about that last day or someone being coached by his wife. Yes, the one he told LE that he was trying to get to shut up.

    http://www.wftv.com/video/17934383/index.html

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 3:30 pm

    The only way I am willing to bend towards Caylee still being alive on June 16th is thus : Casey was in the process of murdering Caylee near midnight on June 15th and Caylee may have not breathed her last until just after 12:am on June 16th.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 3:33 pm

    I have a new post ready for tomorrow or this week. In it, I leave open the door of both dates. My contention here is simple. You insist you are right about the 15th. I say both days should be left open. I believe the date to be the 16th and I have presented viable evidence in support of it. Is it set in stone? No, of course not, but you are. Tomorrow or sometime this week I will offer up more evidence. You are welcome to tear it apart. I am merely saying here and now that there is nothing that substantiates the 15th. Nothing from all of the interviews. Nothing but hearsay. Based on that assumption, therefore Cindy must be lying. That does not sound logical, to be honest. that’s why I ask you for something that backs it up. I can’t say, without a doubt, one date or the other, yet you do. I just want something to nibble on, detwill39. I’m not denying your beliefs. All I know is that George’s sworn statement will go into that courtroom during trial and so far, the state has not said he was wrong.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    Again, you are welcome to your beliefs, but if you claim that to be the ONLY way it occurred, as you do state, then you must have evidence. If LE isn’t so sure, again, I ask you what you know that they don’t?

  • laura // July 5, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    Hi guys. I hope you are all well. We should get to come home tomorrow. I have my fingers crossed. I can’t get any rest at the hospital. They wake us up all hours of the day and night. I will check in later, I miss you all!!!!!!!

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 3:46 pm

    The state will show just how wrong George was in his sworn statement. This will be proven when the sworn statement of Tony Lazarro is brought into evidence and the cell phone calls timeline. I agree that your cell phone pings were right on and I will give you credit for that.

    Your landline calls were not correct and we established that. We may also learn why Cindy called Casey’s cell at 8:30am on June 16th. Was this to find out if Casey was in the bedroom or was Casey still down the street on Suburban with a dead child in her trunk?

    I am looking forward to your new post and you are still my bestest friend on any of these blogs.

  • Beatrice // July 5, 2009 at 4:14 pm

    Since you two are on break, I do not believe George out and out lied about seeing Casey and Caylee leave on 16th.. If Casey killed Caylee on 15th it should not be termed premeditated. Neighbors supposedly heard the fight but they did not see Casey leave with Caylee. I am waiting for information on the context of the calls between Casey and Tony Lazzaro. If Casey grabbed
    Caylee and in a rage ran out of the house after a horrible
    fight it seems to me that Cindy and George would have
    run after her. Otherwise she would have to sneak out with Caylee after everyone had peacefully gone sound asleep. I think there is a clue if it is known what Caylee
    was wearing on the 15th when Cindy had her all day, if
    that is still the same clothing her body was found in.
    But if Caylee was dressed again on 16th she was most
    likely wearing something different than on 15th. I do not believe Casey fought with her mother, went and “dressed Caylee” to take her out and within a
    few minutes murder her on 15th. What does anyone
    know about what Caylee was wearing on 15th, if different than on 16th. Isn’t there a picture with her great-grandparent somewhere? Not fighting with
    anyone about anything, but I always thought Casey got
    rid of Caylee because she was hurting over not going
    with Tony to New York, and Caylee was a bump in the
    road. I do not believe she killed Caylee over her mother
    but the combination of not satisfying her mother and
    Tony’s rejection sent her over the top. Caylee had become the “object”" between her and her mother and now the “object” between her and leaving with Tony. She could have spontaneously tooken all this out on Caylee. If she purchased items in premediation then
    I believe Tony could have early on told her he was leaving and she could not go with him. Mom was pushing her to be more responsible and Tony probably
    did not want Caylee, probably did not really want Casey
    either. He had plans for his life. Casey did not. TL could have had a bigger role in how Casey came to be in the state she was in, but I do not think he knew how desperate Casey was to be with him, her chance to
    “get away” Helping the LE I believe, was to help his
    own image. on and on and on…….I’ll stop because all
    this is more motive oriented anyway, and the “why”
    interests me more than the “when”.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 4:26 pm

    Beatrice~~the murder can be established as predmeditated due to the computer evidence collected, neck breaking, chloroform, household weapons etc. Casey acted sooner due to the argument and Tony not wanting her to come to his place on the night of June 15th with Caylee.

    If Casey ran out of the house with Caylee, he could not have stopped them, if they left before 11pm. George as at work and did not hear the argument.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    Beatrice~~When Cindy and Caylee returned from Mt Dora on June 15th, Cindy said they went in the pool. Caylee’s outfit would have been taking off, her bathing suit put on and then a fresh outfit put on her. Caylee would not be wearing the same outfit as shown in the video.
    Caylee was still in diapers and I doubt if Cindy would have put the same outfit back on her if she had been wearing a soggy diaper under those clothes.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    sry for all the typos… my brain is in overdrive…

  • Beatrice // July 5, 2009 at 4:56 pm

    No doubt you are right on dressing after pool.. Still
    she surely would have had those clothes Cindy put on her if abrubtly taken out of house and shortly thereafter murdered, no pictures though. Has there ever been
    any statement from Cindy as to what she dressed Caylee
    in after pool. Would be hard for Cindy to remember, unless “those” clothes are ones Caylees body was found in it should ring a bell in Cindy’s memory
    (the last time “I” dressed Caylee).

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 4:59 pm

    Quick couple of things, detwill39 – If you contend that the motive could have been a long time coming, yet you are basing your entire premise of the 15th on storming out in a fit of rage, what exactly is your point? All along, you have been stating that the motive was ALL about that argument and that was the ONLY reason why she stormed out of the house and committed the murder. Then, I would agree with you if that date could be established. But! If you are now saying that the wheels were set in motion months or years previous to the actual date of death, why is the date, whether the 15th or 16th, all that relevant? Because it renders it moot and it all comes down to a matter of stubbornness. You say tomayto and I say tomahto.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 5:05 pm

    Beatrice – what that means, if the 15th was the day, is that George and Cindy lied. Plain and simple. And that’s the only way it would work. Period. My article is finished and I will publish it (probably) tomorrow.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    Dave~~I dare you to publish it now. I am going to be real busy tomorrow….ahhhhhh come on.

  • Beatrice // July 5, 2009 at 5:17 pm

    We love you two!

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    Motive= revenge
    Motive= to get rid of the one who got all the attention that she felt she deserved
    Motive= both of the above

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    OK, I will do that for you, detwill39, because I love you. Besides, I can change the date to tomorrow if I want. Tomorrow, anyway.

    Remember, this is not just focused on you. There was another blogger who said it and several of his dingy disciples. And his was merely based on gut feelings. That’s what provoked me.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 5:25 pm

    Dave~~If you wish to read the following, it will give you a chance to change your post so it will reflect my brilliance.

    Nibble on this hon, and don’t go nibbling on me.

    For what it’s worth, here is my take on what happened on June 15th/16th.

    Casey arrives home on June 15th at approx. 7:30Pm from Tonys.
    Around 9:30pm, Cindy confronts Casey about stealing from her g/parents account.
    The argument escalates to the point that Cindy takes Casey by the throat. The fight lasted about one half hour.
    In a blinding rage, Casey leaves with Caylee in tow, telling her mother she will never see them again.
    Casey calls Tony and tells him that she had a big fight with her mother. She does not tell him the exact truth about what they fought over. The last thing that Casey wants is for Tony to know that she has been known to steal.
    Casey asks Tony if she can bring Caylee over to spend the night. Tony tells her that she can come but he does not want Caylee.
    Casey stays in the neighborhood of Hopespring, somewhere near the school on Suburban.
    She continues to talk to Tony all the while trying to get Caylee settled down. Casey is starting to panic and go over the edge. She tells Tony that she will get back to him. At approx. 11pm, is when I think that Casey murdered Caylee in cold blood with the use of the duct tape of Amy’s that was still in her trunk. Casey threw Caylee in the trunk and let her suffocate.
    Casey is now alone in the car and afraid in the dark. She calls Tony back and keeps him talking for 80 minutes.
    Eventually Casey falls asleep around daybreak and stays in the neighborhood, out of site, then returns home when she thinks that both her parents have left the house….sometime around 1:30/2:00pm.

  • LosAngeles // July 5, 2009 at 5:37 pm

    Detwill, that also sounds feasible.

  • Beatrice // July 5, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    Detwill39, I don’t want to start anything with Dave, but
    do you seriously think that Casey put Caylee under the bed. Also do you think she added more tape to Caylee’s mouth on the 16th at the house. Wasn’t it stated that the tape was put on while Caylee was lying on her back. This child. if in the car when it happened while Casey was on phone with Tony could have been crying hard and Tony could have heard her prior to the act. I really believe Tony L. knows more than more and LE is keeping under wraps.
    For me the whole truth lies between what TL will testify
    and what George and Cindy have already stated. Now,
    I have that all cut and dried, hang me! :-)

  • LosAngeles // July 5, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    Everyone seems to be in agreement that Caylee was killed either on the 15th or the 16th.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    I really, really like your take on the neighborhood, detwill39, like there are really good places to hide there. I guess you do know more about it than me.

    I reiterate my questions to you on motive, which you have chosen to ignore. I will ask them again. You wrote to Beatrice that “the murder can be established as predmeditated due to the computer evidence collected, neck breaking, chloroform, household weapons etc. Casey acted sooner due to the argument and Tony not wanting her to come to his place on the night of June 15th with Caylee.”

    I wrote back to you with respect to your statement: If you contend that the motive could have been a long time coming, yet you are basing your entire premise of the 15th on storming out in a fit of rage, what exactly is your point? All along, you have been stating that the motive was ALL about that argument and that was the ONLY reason why she stormed out of the house and committed the murder. Then, I would agree with you if that date could be established. But! If you are now saying that the wheels were set in motion months or years previous to the actual date of death, why is the date, whether the 15th or 16th, all that relevant?

    Now I ask you, if she killed Caylee the night of the 15th as you state as solid fact, although no police agency will say the same thing, why didn’t she just stuff her body in the trunk right then and there and drive herself right back to Lazzaro’s apartment instead of spending the entire night in her car? By the way, her car would have to have been running all night, if the air conditioning still worked. did you think about that part of it? She would have burned a lot of gas or burned herself in the sweltering summer heat in a car.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    Beatrice~~I wont let anyone hang you honey. What a sin!! LOL

    I firmly believe that Tony Lazarro’ s testimony will be of the utmost importance. Why do I think that LE finds Tony to be credible and willing to help them? They trusted him enough to wire him up and do the sting on Lee Anthony.
    This speaks volumes.

  • LosAngeles // July 5, 2009 at 6:08 pm

    I think Detwill and Dave can agree to disagree.
    Like, in other words, “I know that you believe that AB happened, and that I believe that CD happened. Let’s wait until the trial and see which one of us is right about this.”

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    I was giving a visual about under the bed. I’m sorry, you ladies can think what you want, but I will stick with the 16th until someone, not a blog person, but someone in law enforcement tells me otherwise. In the meantime, I am waiting for simple answers to my simple questions.

  • Id'claire // July 5, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    If Tomayto and Tomahto are allowed, why can’t Detwill and Dave each provide logic, each scenario work? without Dave interpreting Detwill’s logic as his own being illogical? and vice versa

    By Mitnik’s standards, all Detwill has to prove is that the 16th is not the day, eliminate it…that George is lying. That allows the 15th.

    Why did George lie about this? Wasn’t he in his truthful vein still when he recounted this? Why cover that there wasn’t a fight? To eliminate motive? Why hide this if it is truth? Cindy guilt too great? Did Casey maybe verbally threaten death, or suggest it with “never seeing her again?”

    If Casey left with Caylee, it would be near dark or dark. Neighbors wouldn’t notice or remember.

    Detwill, I can’t hear Tony telling Casey not to bring the kid. I don’t know what they talked about previously regarding sleepovers with Caylee. Tony always spoke well of Caylee and seemed to enjoy her…And I’m sure Casey would have given him a heartrending story as to her needing to come over.

    What I can envision is Casey deciding to murder Caylee away from the house (she couldn’t stand to be in Cindy’s presence. I can’t see them all just going to bed…) and your account of her threat sounds reasonable. Casey decided just to get out of there and finally fulfill her fantasy regarding Caylee (without full thought)

    She had darkness, and she knew the solitary places. Keeping Caylee quiet would have been an issue. Caylee was probably frightened by the fight, her Nana so upset, her Mom dragging her away, being so tired after such a long day, having her own terrible-twos issues, etc.

    Casey would have to have everything already on hand for the deed…someone said she had the tape in her trunk.

    I don’t see Tony as a motive for finishing off Caylee on the 15th. But it was possibly done overnight, and all the after-rush and adrenaline went from Casey to Tony through the phone.

  • detwill39 // July 5, 2009 at 6:15 pm

    Dave~~ I am not allowing you to try and confuse me. Casey was in the process of premeditating a murder. The intent was there.
    She acted on it sooner because of the big fight.
    The motive was premeditated with the intent to murder and acted upon prematurely due to the argument of the 15th.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    You women sit there and talk about Lazzaro telling Casey not to bring the kid, as if it was exactly that night in particular. You see how you twist things? How does anyone know that he told her that night? Where in Lazzaro’s interview does it state that? By the way, how come I’m the only one who knows how to spell his last name correctly, or am I wrong about that, too? Look at his LinkedIn page: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/tony-lazzaro/b/810/491

  • magog2 // July 5, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    Hi all,

    I was reading some of the post regarding the day George said he saw Caylee & Casey leave. Wasn’t it his first day on his new job? Didn’t he say he was watching his favorite cooking show when they left? Maybe someone can check his toll tokens as to where and what time he went to work on his first day on the job. EZ Pass I think they are called. There is a list of when he used them somewhere. I did see it before.

    I hope everyone had a great July 4th!!!

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    So what is your point, exactly? If it was premeditated, the death would have come. You have yet to prove that an argument took place. Any document will do. And don’t go accusing me of trying to confuse you. I am asking you valid questions and I expect valid answers.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 6:26 pm

    The issue has nothing to do with toll roads, magog2. Hello, by the way. It has to do with calling George a blatant liar.

  • LosAngeles // July 5, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    I’m not taking one side or the other, but,
    Id’Claire, it’s in the evidence documents(I believe text messages) but anyway, it was in the evidence documents that Tony L. said, yeah, you can come over if you don’t bring the baby(on night of June 15th) Nobody is guessing about that.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    No one has been able to prove George is lying about it, Id’claire, and this is coming down to that charge.

  • LosAngeles // July 5, 2009 at 6:30 pm

    I’m not taking one side or the other, but, Id’Claire,
    it’s in the evidence documents(I believe it was text messages) but anyway, it’s in the evidence documents that Tony L. said to Casey on June 15th, yeah, you can come over if you don’t bring the baby. Nobody is guessing about that.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 6:30 pm

    Then why didn’t Casey go to Tony’s that night? The kid was dead according to all of you.

  • Marinade Dave // July 5, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    Why not move this debate to the new post, where it is wide open for discussion?

  • LosAngeles // July 5, 2009 at 6:34 pm

    Don’t include me in the all. I never claimed it.

  • LosAngeles // July 5, 2009 at 6:35 pm

    You all can still agree to disagree and to wait and see if the trial will show who is correct about this.

  • Beatrice // July 5, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    Not all Dave, I am not even holding to the 16th, could have
    been later that Caylee died. The reason has to do with
    the decomposition time, and Tony having been around the
    car, not stating that he noticed any odor especially
    the day with the gas can filling the car on some street,
    before the car was left where it was found.

  • Dee // July 6, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    Dave – I don’t have time today to read all your article – just noting that yesterday I watched Exrtreme Forensics on Discovery(? I think). And the thought crossed my mind, as i was watching, that if I was on trial I would want to ask the expert who did the ‘tests’ a few questions about procedure – things like – Did you get both samples together or under seperate package? Did you know the 2 samples were ‘related’ – that is – being tested for comparison on a specific crime – or did they come in blind, that is, you test 2 seperate samples, send them back, and then someone else declares a match or no match. It just seemed too one sided – pro-prosecution – the way it ‘appeared’ to go out for testing, 2 samples in for comparison, and the tests are a match.

    PS – the crime was horrid – so this could influence the tester – or sender of dna could mention something to tester – like – This is our ONLY chance at conviction, KNOW this person did it, but will walk unless we get ‘em ‘here’ – etc.

    If I was on trial, I’d want to know these things, especially if I was innocent, and the dna tests came back as a match. Just saying :-) LOL. Later – gotta go.

  • Marinade Dave // July 6, 2009 at 6:16 pm

    The official line of all prosecutorial procedures would be to guarantee that all tests are done without knowledge of the identity or the circumstances. This is to assure that no defense could question prejudice. Every 3 months, for example, I have blood work done. The lab techs get samples from all over, thousands of tests are run each day. they don’t care, nor do they want to know. The recent Supreme Court ruling in favor of the defense to bring techs into trial for cross-examining is not to decipher anything other than testing methods. For years, the defense has had to rely on a piece of paper outlining the results. The manner of testing, i.e., the procedure and security, was never an issue. As a matter of fact, the defense sometimes uses the same outside labs. In any case, the object of those tests is to prove guilt and also to exonerate the innocent. Look how many have gotten off death row and rape charges because of DNA tests proving other lab work was faulty.

  • Dee // July 7, 2009 at 9:32 am

    Thanks for reply Dave. I have a bit of time this morn and will catch up on my reading :-) .

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